Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #31

1000 replies

nauticant · 18/07/2025 12:49

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30, found here: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30

OP posts:
Thread gallery
24
KateShugakIsALegend · 18/07/2025 19:30

MarieDeGournay · 18/07/2025 19:27

If anybody wants to donate to Sex Matters, of which NC is Chair, as a gesture of appreciation to NC and the rest of SP's team, this is their donation page:
Donate to Sex Matters - Sex Matters

Subscribed, thank you

littlbrowndog · 18/07/2025 19:30

Yes we give people a battering in Scotland

we don’t then deep fry them after battering them

Waitwhat23 · 18/07/2025 19:30

BettyBooper · 18/07/2025 19:28

They hoodwinked SP. Called her in for a meeting with a breezy 'you are ok to continue without a Union Rep '? And suspended her.

From 13/2/25
ED - in my office, AS was there also
JR - what did you say
ED - mostly it was chat with AS, about the suspension, and the IX process, we also checked that SP was happy for the meeting to go forward and for her to be unrepresented. The decision for everyone's safety was to...

No HR involvement.

Yeah you are correct procedure not followed.

Shit show.

It's all in thread #16.

They absolutely ambushed her.

Though to be fair, RCN wouldn't have been any help, as they refused to help later on when Sandie asked!

TrainedByCats · 18/07/2025 19:31

BettyBooper · 18/07/2025 19:28

They hoodwinked SP. Called her in for a meeting with a breezy 'you are ok to continue without a Union Rep '? And suspended her.

From 13/2/25
ED - in my office, AS was there also
JR - what did you say
ED - mostly it was chat with AS, about the suspension, and the IX process, we also checked that SP was happy for the meeting to go forward and for her to be unrepresented. The decision for everyone's safety was to...

No HR involvement.

Yeah you are correct procedure not followed.

Shit show.

It's all in thread #16.

I love that the whole shitshow is captured here on FWR, it will be a valuable resource to whoever writes the mini-series epic multi series arc

MarieDeGournay · 18/07/2025 19:31

Largesso · 18/07/2025 19:26

I seemed to have missed the bit of TT where they discuss the NHS Fife statement. Am I being daft? I’m seeing quotes from JRs response but not the actual section of TT

It wasn't really discussed, the statement 'dropped' just before the trib was due to finish for the week.
NC dramatically called for a pause to consider ...
JR did her best to say something sensible - quite an achievement in the circs!
Judge said judgy things about thinking about it and they'll deal with it on Monday.

So there was a small bit on TT, just before the 'that's all folks!', but it will be Monday before it is discussed in detail.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 18/07/2025 19:33

the latest version at 18.31 https://archive.ph/OTSj3#selection-489.14-564.4

It seems to have bizarrely removed the paragraph about SexMatters but forgotten to remove the two statements that to be clear, they don't blame SexMatters for the abuse!

guinnessguzzler · 18/07/2025 19:34

Thanks SO MUCH everyone! Have now read it. So it's basically: Sex Matters did this bad thing, Sex Matters did this other bad thing, and now trans people are being treated really badly by everyone and Sex Matters did loads of bad things but just to be really clear, we don't think it's Sex Matters' fault but they did do lots of bad things and now trans people are suffering. Unbelievable.

rebmacesrevda · 18/07/2025 19:34

NebulousSupportPostcard · 18/07/2025 19:33

the latest version at 18.31 https://archive.ph/OTSj3#selection-489.14-564.4

It seems to have bizarrely removed the paragraph about SexMatters but forgotten to remove the two statements that to be clear, they don't blame SexMatters for the abuse!

How many versions are there now?!

Like the "investigation", I think this might become the statement that wasn't a statement.

WeMeetInFairIthilien · 18/07/2025 19:34

😱😱😱 What were they thinking??? 😱😱😱

Been stuck in a field all day, alongside the M5. And I come home to THIS to catch up with.

Term time didn't end a moment too soon!

Boiledbeetle · 18/07/2025 19:35

rebmacesrevda · 18/07/2025 19:34

How many versions are there now?!

Like the "investigation", I think this might become the statement that wasn't a statement.

Version 964 I think

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 18/07/2025 19:35

NebulousSupportPostcard · 18/07/2025 19:33

the latest version at 18.31 https://archive.ph/OTSj3#selection-489.14-564.4

It seems to have bizarrely removed the paragraph about SexMatters but forgotten to remove the two statements that to be clear, they don't blame SexMatters for the abuse!

I get this image of a tech at the data center tearing cables out of a rack of computers desperately trying to stop a virus taking root.

AtoC · 18/07/2025 19:35

MyAmpleSheep · 18/07/2025 15:33

“Someone without the PC of gender reassignment cannot claim discrimination on the grounds of not having GR.”

I see this widely repeated but I cannot find an authoritative source (like case law) nor does it match the plain meaning of the words of the EA2010.

I see that it’s not a PC not to be GR, but you can’t lawfully discriminate in favour of someone with a PC, which is the same as discriminating against someone who lacks that PC.

In fact it is expressly allowed to discriminate against someone for not being disabled, which makes my point rather strongly for the other PC’s.

Edited

"I see this widely repeated but I cannot find an authoritative source (like case law)"

That is because, as far as I'm aware, there is no case law on that particular point.

Indirect discrimination does definitely require a person to hold the particular PC:

19 Indirect discrimination

(1) A person (A) discriminates against another (B) if A applies to B a provision, criterion or practice which is discriminatory in relation to a relevant protected characteristic of B's.

(although section 19A does say that there can be cases where B does not have to actually share the same PC).
.

In contrast, direct discrimination just uses the phrase "if, because of a protected characteristic"

However, if you look at Section 13(3) there is an exemption for disability:

(3) If the protected characteristic is disability, and B is not a disabled person, A does not discriminate against B only because A treats or would treat disabled persons more favourably than A treats B.

There is a similar exemption in subsection (6) for women in connection with pregnancy, childbirth or maternity.

In contrast, there is no similar exception for gender reassignment. There is no part of the Act that says:

If the protected characteristic is gender reassignment, and B is not a person with gender reassignment, A does not discriminate against B only because A treats or would treat persons with gender reassignment more favourably than A treats B.

The lack of this exemption would suggest that GR is a different kettle of fish to disability or maternity.

But that would, no doubt, come down to statutory interpretation again.

Do you really want to consider a case that may go to the Supreme Court?

Charabanc · 18/07/2025 19:36

MyrtleLion · 18/07/2025 17:01

If I were JR, I'd be advising them to settle by Monday. If the judge is pissed off with them, Sandie's settlement will be even bigger than we expect.

I honestly don't know how Sandie can go back and work in that hospital with these witnesses.

Fife cannot settle unless Sandie lets them. She has all the power, now 😈

BettyBooper · 18/07/2025 19:36

NebulousSupportPostcard · 18/07/2025 19:33

the latest version at 18.31 https://archive.ph/OTSj3#selection-489.14-564.4

It seems to have bizarrely removed the paragraph about SexMatters but forgotten to remove the two statements that to be clear, they don't blame SexMatters for the abuse!

'NHS Fife did not initiate the ongoing tribunal proceedings and is instead one of two ‘respondents’ being sued. NHS Fife cannot unilaterally stop proceedings.'

It's totally DU continuing to push this.

Largesso · 18/07/2025 19:37

GrumpyUngulate · 18/07/2025 19:03

"because this has taken place in public, I am afraid that threats have been made..."

Smells like another attempt to exclude TT should be expected on Monday. The common people can't be allowed to know what's happening in this tribunal, open justice is simply too dangerous etc...

I think they might have shit themselves IB the foot on that score given the foolish publication of such a badly worded and considered statement today.

they are clearly frustrated that no one is speaking up for them in the way that Sex Matters is speaking up for SP and how the majority of sensible folk are responding. It comes off as petulant and tantrumy in the ‘it’s not fair Mum, she was horrible too’ category.

BettyBooper · 18/07/2025 19:37

BettyBooper · 18/07/2025 19:36

'NHS Fife did not initiate the ongoing tribunal proceedings and is instead one of two ‘respondents’ being sued. NHS Fife cannot unilaterally stop proceedings.'

It's totally DU continuing to push this.

He's going to bring the whole thing down.

Oh the irony!

Largesso · 18/07/2025 19:38

Largesso · 18/07/2025 19:37

I think they might have shit themselves IB the foot on that score given the foolish publication of such a badly worded and considered statement today.

they are clearly frustrated that no one is speaking up for them in the way that Sex Matters is speaking up for SP and how the majority of sensible folk are responding. It comes off as petulant and tantrumy in the ‘it’s not fair Mum, she was horrible too’ category.

Sorry! Shot themselves in the foot 😂

persister · 18/07/2025 19:38

littlbrowndog · 18/07/2025 19:30

Yes we give people a battering in Scotland

we don’t then deep fry them after battering them

I'm also very fond of gubbed. Which NHS Fife will be.

rebmacesrevda · 18/07/2025 19:39

Largesso · 18/07/2025 19:38

Sorry! Shot themselves in the foot 😂

I liked the first version 😂

Boiledbeetle · 18/07/2025 19:40

Largesso · 18/07/2025 19:38

Sorry! Shot themselves in the foot 😂

I think the first version works better 😂

TrainedByCats · 18/07/2025 19:40

I assume by Monday NHS Fife and Upton will have separate barristers, I wonder which client Jane Russell gets to keep 😂

CriticalCondition · 18/07/2025 19:40
  • NHS Fife is not seeking to suggest that Sex Matters have contributed to the behaviour or issues mentioned above."

I suspect Fife have now consulted a lawyer with enough expertise in defamation to say this statement was a very, VERY bad idea and Fife have had an 'oh fuuuuckkk' moment. The advice will have been to withdraw it and Fife will have said no. The lawyer will have said 'who are these fuckwits' 'ok, but you are going to get absolutely stuffed unless you publish a clarification'.

But their little PS tagged on the end is only mitigation and not good enough to neutralise the damage of the original statement which was published without it.

I've rearranged my diary for Monday morning.

rebmacesrevda · 18/07/2025 19:42

TrainedByCats · 18/07/2025 19:40

I assume by Monday NHS Fife and Upton will have separate barristers, I wonder which client Jane Russell gets to keep 😂

If I was JR I'd withdraw a stash of cash and take myself away to the Outer Hebrides tonight.

Largesso · 18/07/2025 19:42

BettyBooper · 18/07/2025 19:28

They hoodwinked SP. Called her in for a meeting with a breezy 'you are ok to continue without a Union Rep '? And suspended her.

From 13/2/25
ED - in my office, AS was there also
JR - what did you say
ED - mostly it was chat with AS, about the suspension, and the IX process, we also checked that SP was happy for the meeting to go forward and for her to be unrepresented. The decision for everyone's safety was to...

No HR involvement.

Yeah you are correct procedure not followed.

Shit show.

It's all in thread #16.

That was after the immediate special leave ordered by Jamie Doyle where he sent today’s witness off to find policy to back it up. When sge did they then phoned SP and were surprised she didn’t break down in tears on speakerphone in response

guinnessguzzler · 18/07/2025 19:44

Largesso · 18/07/2025 19:38

Sorry! Shot themselves in the foot 😂

I think we can all agree that if anyone were to shit themselves in the foot, it would be NHS Fife. In fact, it is so apt for them, I didn't even read it as wrong the first time! Absolute foot shitters, they are 😂

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.