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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #31

1000 replies

nauticant · 18/07/2025 12:49

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30, found here: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30

OP posts:
Thread gallery
24
unbelieveable22 · 18/07/2025 19:03

Could anyone clarify if SP was informed of her 'special leave' via a telephone call?
What meetings etc took place between her and senior management prior to this decision? TIA.

GrumpyUngulate · 18/07/2025 19:03

BezMills · 18/07/2025 16:29

NC continues, as her ring does its work

From TT

(NC) Para 4 seems to conclude that in the context of this debate that this has evolved into more worrying behaviour that has required the involvement of police Scotland. This statement on day 3 of resumed procedings...It is a matter of some concern that a party to these procedings.....with SP has been linked to behaviours of members of the public. There are factual inaccuracies that will be dealt with on Monday. The short point is that this is unusual conduct. It is irresponsible in the context of what we already know. It is for this reason we bring this to the Tribunals notice and any other steps to be taken?

J - Miss Russell?

(Big Sond looks like someone has shat in his favourite chair and he's just come home to find his office reeking ae shite)

JR - I would also like time to think about it I am still unclear what order is being sought. On this statement - nothing said that isn't true. I don't think there is any defamation. In any event none of it isnt true. A stretch to say that Para 3 is leading to Para 4. That the roles of the people in para 3 are associated to the worrying treatment in para 4. I don't make that connection .because this has taken place in public, I am afraid that threats have been made to them as have been made to me. I don't have the details of what CE is referring to, I had not understood threats made to legal team, there may be things I was not told about. Yes...yes.

"because this has taken place in public, I am afraid that threats have been made..."

Smells like another attempt to exclude TT should be expected on Monday. The common people can't be allowed to know what's happening in this tribunal, open justice is simply too dangerous etc...

Butchyrestingface · 18/07/2025 19:04

WannabeEDIOfficer · 18/07/2025 19:02

You would think if NHS Fife thought the information commissioner was 'emotional', they would heve walked him to his car and done a one sided group email in support.

He wasn't half-dressed in a woman's changing room and identifying as Davina when he released that statement so he's out of luck.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 18/07/2025 19:04

KateShugakIsALegend · 18/07/2025 19:01

I think NHS Fife have pulled the statement - can't get anything to load.

The statement is ofline but Cloudflare is showing the archive.org snapshot in its place. And archive.org is the original text, without the "To be clear" amendment so it looks worse for NHSFife as if they hadn't pulled the page.

NebulousDog · 18/07/2025 19:04

I’m not clever enough to C&P a tweet, but has anybody read the Info Commissioner’s press release?
https://www.foi.scot/commissioner-escalates-level-3-intervention

Oops. Apologies to all who have already commented. I wonder whether the BBC will report this?!

Commissioner escalates Level 3 intervention | Scottish Information Commissioner

Commissioner issues warning to NHS Forth Valley following an extended period of poor performance.

https://www.foi.scot/commissioner-escalates-level-3-intervention

Boiledbeetle · 18/07/2025 19:04

Boiledbeetle · 18/07/2025 19:03

I'm currently singing

Baby, look at me
And tell me what you see
You ain't seen the best of me yet
Give me time, I'll make you forget the rest

I got more in me
And you can set it free
I can catch the moon in my hands
Don't you know who I am?
Remember my name

FIFE

Now I want to hear the original

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://youtu.be/RXVnu1iWrGE?si=YsNbvJa8klZZe53U

nauticant · 18/07/2025 19:05

But it was them who called SPs daughter and husband to the stand, dragging her family right into front and centre.

I'm not sure this is right. I think instead it would have been a discussion on the Claimant's side and the agreement of the family members to appear to support her case.

OP posts:
KateShugakIsALegend · 18/07/2025 19:06

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 18/07/2025 19:02

Make a copy of the new version somewhere - can you copy and paste into this thread?

Yes, please do @socialdilemmawhattodo

rebmacesrevda · 18/07/2025 19:07

The data breach is just perfect. How does Fife find so many fuckwits to employ?

NotAtMyAge · 18/07/2025 19:07

DrBlackbird · 18/07/2025 18:16

I know men who cried when confronted about their negative actions. It’s a despicable form of manipulation. Entirely engineered to elicit sympathy especially from women. And shame on the BBC for using that emotive headline in their despicable attempt to engineer sympathy for DrU.

That link now leads to an updated version entitled "Lawyers for nurse in trans case criticise 'irresponsible' health board" of which the first half is now about NHS Fife's bombshell press release, with sobbing Beth relegated to the bottom half of the page.

Butchyrestingface · 18/07/2025 19:07

unbelieveable22 · 18/07/2025 19:03

Could anyone clarify if SP was informed of her 'special leave' via a telephone call?
What meetings etc took place between her and senior management prior to this decision? TIA.

There seems to be very little information in the public domain pertaining to her suspension. Though given that none of the nurses were informed beforehand there would presently be a hulking six feet male joining them in their changing rooms, I think it's probably fair to conjecture that due process may not have been followed there either.

As long as I was on full pay, I don't think 'special leave' would be quite the hardship NHS Fife intended it to be, given the fuckwittery she had to put up with on a daily basis at her place of employment.

alsoFanOfNaomi · 18/07/2025 19:07

@Taytoface

But it was them who called SPs daughter and husband to the stand, dragging her family right into front and centre. A horrendous low blow, I think designed to highlight her working class origins.

Was it? I think they were there as SP's witnesses, weren't they? ( @nauticant said this first, sorry, I typed too slowly)

MarieDeGournay · 18/07/2025 19:08

TrainedByCats · 18/07/2025 18:56

I don’t know about anyone else but I just felt moved to do a one off donation to Sex Matters, without them this insanity wouldn’t have been as exposed to the public.

Cheers Naomi & Maya and every other member of your organisation 🍸

We did a 'synchronised donation en masse' to SM as a gesture of appreciation to NC and her team during Phase 1 of the Tribunal.
As a lot of us would want to keep our donation anonymous, I contacted
SM to let them know that if they got a sudden uptick in donations - that was us!

Happy to do the same again if you like, not just because I'm a wonderful, helpful person, but because the last time I got lovely thank-you emails from both
✨Maya and Naomi✨
which I generously shared by posting them on here😁

So - another round of donations to Sex Matters [if you can afford to, but everybody's gratitude and admiration will be passed on regardless] -
yes?

ThatCyanCat · 18/07/2025 19:09

prh47bridge · 18/07/2025 19:03

Some time ago the press (I think) put in a Freedom of Information request to NHS Fife asking them to reveal how much they had spent on this case. They refused to supply the information. This went to the Scottish Information Commissioner who told them they had to release the information. NHS Fife were not happy. Just how unhappy they were was revealed in a data breach when a mother requested her son's medical records and, instead of sending them, NHS Fife sent her a copy of his judgement with comments from Fife branding him emotional, selective and not professional. However, NHS Fife told the Commissioner that they would comply with his judgement.

Fife's statement this afternoon throws doubt on whether they have complied fully with the Commissioner's ruling. If they have not, that is contempt of court and could be very costly for them.

Apologies to anyone who can't view X but I can't find this very apt video anywhere else.

We're useless! Useless!

https://x.com/i/status/1216285520298418176

https://x.com/i/status/1216285520298418176

yourhairiswinterfire · 18/07/2025 19:10

NHS Fife: Investigates a nurse (in an investigation that doesn't ID as an investigation) for telling a man who has no legal right to be in the women's changing room that he shouldn't be in the women's changing room.

Wastes time by not disclosing crucial documents that had been ordered to be disclosed.

Flings loads of mud at SP during the tribunal hoping something will stick, implying she's guilty of a few of 'isms' and 'phobias', with zero evidence to back up this character assassination.

Employs a doctor that thinks because he's not a robot he must be a biological woman, that sex is a 'nebulous dogwhistle', and makes creepy notes on when a woman leaves the female changing room because his presence in them is making her uncomfortable.

Has an EDI lead that doesn't know Equality law or what sex she is.

Had staff clearly taking sides based on the word of one man, condemning Sandie's behaviour (before even investigating if she'd done what she was accused of) in emails CCing the world and his dog in, whilst telling Sandie she's not allowed to discuss anything with anyone. Because apparently they take confidentiality very seriously.

Had a witness state today that a woman not wanting to get undressed with a male is 'intolerance' to transgender people.

Also NHS Fife: The public think we're incompetent fucking idiots - must be that Sex Matters' fault!!

SionnachRuadh · 18/07/2025 19:11

rebmacesrevda · 18/07/2025 19:07

The data breach is just perfect. How does Fife find so many fuckwits to employ?

It must be some kind of ScotGov employment scheme.

This wee cuddy hisnae an oonce.

Grand, gie her a joab wi NHS Fife.

lcakethereforeIam · 18/07/2025 19:13

Boiledbeetle · 18/07/2025 19:04

Now I want to hear the original

ouch loop GIF by America's Funniest Home Videos

Fgs don't give them ideas. What if they wanna learn how to fly?

Notfinanciallyresponsibleforyou · 18/07/2025 19:15

KateShugakIsALegend · 18/07/2025 19:01

I think NHS Fife have pulled the statement - can't get anything to load.

Too late for them. Already out in the public domain with screen shots taken.

NebulousDogWhistleIsReality · 18/07/2025 19:15

Bluebootsgreenboots · 18/07/2025 19:01

At this point it won’t fit into a film. We were heading for a mini series (I’m thinking like ‘A woman of Substance’), but after today’s malarkey, it’s more like one of those endless series where you have no idea wtf is going on. Like ‘Twin Peaks’ or ‘Lost’
We’ll need a good theme tune and @BezMills commentary included.
Off to carry on catching up - what a day to miss! Fortunately not needed at work next week so will be watching along side all all you wonderful vipers.

He could do like a Twilight Zone style narration at the start and end of each episode

BeLemonNow · 18/07/2025 19:15

Had a witness state today that a woman not wanting to get undressed with a male is 'intolerance' to transgender people.

It transpired said witness doesn't have to use changing space, and neither do any of the other management who made the decision.

Just when we think things couldn't get any more batshit, NHS Fife at 4pm on a Friday posted a long dubious statement on their website.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 18/07/2025 19:16

I quite honestly feel like I'm watching a tv series like the thick of it. Every episode the car crash just gets worse and worse. I'm just imagining a Malcolm Tuckker esque character swearing in Fife dialect.

NeedToChangeName · 18/07/2025 19:16

tigger1001 · 18/07/2025 17:57

i live in fife. And while I know there will be a budget for defending claims, it was announced in the press that the closest minor injuries unit is closing. Meaning for me I'm better going to Perth or Dundee for any injuries rather than go to one in Fife. The money wasted by Fife on this could have been much better spent.

How infuriating

guinnessguzzler · 18/07/2025 19:17

I NEED TO SEE THE STATEMENT.

Sorry for shouting, it's not like me at all, but I really need to see it! Not that we need any more evidence that they're a bunch of complete fuckwits but it would be gratifying, I'm sure.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 18/07/2025 19:17

BREAKING NEWS

NHS FIFE have just issued a new statement:
”Nae me, a big loddie di’ it and run awa’ “

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 18/07/2025 19:18

Below is a mid period copy of the statement with 'to be clear' edits

Statement on the Recommencement of the Employment Tribunal
NHS Fife is setting out its position on a number of matters related to the ongoing employment tribunal and provide clarity around some of the misinformation circulating around the tribunal case that NHS Fife is defending.
Back to list18/07/2025

With the employment tribunal now having recommenced, NHS Fife would like to clarify its position on a number of related matters. This is intended to answer some of the questions posed to the health board by members of the press, elected representatives and the public, and provide clarity around some of the misinformation circulating on social media and being reported in the wider media relating to the tribunal case that NHS Fife is having to defend.

NHS Fife has obligations, both as a public sector organisation and as an employer, to maintain the confidentiality of members of its staff, including those directly and indirectly involved in the tribunal. This, coupled with the requirement not to take any actions which could be seen to prejudice the legal proceedings, means that NHS Fife is restricted in what it can and cannot say publicly. NHS Fife remains committed to transparency, however, and will always aim to be open in the information provided directly to the public and to the media and will continue to act in accordance with its legal obligations and public duties.

The legal case brought against NHS Fife began after it commenced an internal investigation following allegations made by a member of its staff. The claimant’s case is being supported by Sex Matters, whose chief executive officer and co-founder was called as a witness by the claimant in the earlier hearing. The claimant’s barrister is also chair of Sex Matters. Other members of the organisation’s ‘advisory group’ have provided commentary to the media on a number of occasions where no reference is made to their direct involvement in the organisation. Sex Matters have been very active, making numerous statements which it would appear are aimed at steering public opinion in a way that NHS Fife as a public body clearly cannot.

While NHS Fife recognises the clear public interest in the tribunal, and of scrutinising NHS Fife’s actions as a public body, it remains important to be mindful of the privacy of all those giving evidence in the case. There has been significant and very polarised debate on social media regarding the case and associated issues, throughout. In some cases, however, what began as debate has evolved into much more worrying behaviour, including a threat of physical harm and sexual violence, which has required the involvement of Police Scotland. To be clear NHS Fife is not seeking to suggest that anyone involved with Sex Matters have contributed to the behaviour or issues mentioned above.

We value the contribution of every member of staff and the diversity that strengthens our teams, services, and care. Our staff are committed professionals, and we are proud of the work delivered across NHS Fife every day. At this critical time, it is essential they remain focused on providing high-quality care and services without being subjected to unacceptable personal attacks and trolling on social media.

Why is NHS Fife continuing the tribunal case? Why not simply drop the action?
NHS Fife did not initiate the ongoing tribunal proceedings and is instead one of two ‘respondents’ being sued. NHS Fife cannot unilaterally stop proceedings - only the claimant can choose to withdraw the case. The claimant has said in a recent statement from her legal representatives that she is determined to continue with her legal claim, as she is entitled to do. NHS Fife respects and recognises the right of employees to pursue legal recourse if they believe wrongdoing has occurred.

The health board is not pursuing any legal action against the claimant - it is instead defending itself, as it is required to do. The legal case concerns a range of different claims and allegations, against NHS Fife and its staff, including in relation to the claimant’s suspension, the investigation, and other matters allegedly said or done.

Is this case not just about a staff member raising concerns about a trans woman using a female changing room?
While the claimant raised concerns about a trans woman’s use of a locker room, this was not the reason that NHS Fife’s internal investigation was initiated. As made clear during tribunal proceedings, the disciplinary process was initiated due to concerns raised about interactions with a colleague and patient care.
The Health Board has a responsibility to fully investigate where concerns are raised about the conduct of any of its employees, in accordance with established policies and procedures. The act of investigating a concern does not assume any wrongdoing.

An internal disciplinary investigation is not of itself punitive in nature and exists to fairly assess concerns raised by establishing facts. At the stage legal action via an employment tribunal was taken by the claimant in this case, NHS Fife had not reached any final conclusions on its internal investigation although, as widely reported, this has since been completed. NHS Fife believes its internal disciplinary process in this matter has been fair and impartial.

A statement regarding the conclusion of the internal investigation and the internal conduct hearing is available on the NHS Fife website here:- Media Statement – NHS Fife Outcome of Internal Conduct Hearing | NHS Fife.
To be clear, the NHS Fife internal disciplinary process (now concluded) is separate and distinct from the ongoing Employment Tribunal. The Employment Tribunal hearing will conclude on 30 July, and the Judgment is expected in the months following that.

How much has defending the employment tribunal case cost NHS Fife?
The cost to NHS Fife of defending the tribunal case is capped at £25,000. NHS Fife participates in the Clinical Negligence and Other Risks Indemnity Scheme (CNORIS), which works in a similar way to an insurance policy by protecting members against financial losses and legal costs pertaining to both clinical and non-clinical claims and settlements.

As of 30 June 2025, £258,831.31 in legal costs have been recorded as expenditure related to the legal services associated with this case. NHS Fife is liable for the first £25,000 of costs associated with defending the case.

Why did NHS Fife not provide the costs of the legal defence sooner?
Earlier this year, NHS Fife was asked to confirm the legal costs associated with the employment tribunal under FOI legislation. At the time these requests were made, NHS Fife believed that it did not hold the figures requested, as the legal fees were managed through the Central Legal Office (CLO) and National Services Scotland (NSS) who administer the CNORIS Indemnity scheme.
The Scottish Information Commissioner was critical of the thoroughness of the search carried out by NHS Fife and instructed the Health Board to “carry out adequate, proportionate searches for the information requested, reach a decision on the basis of those searches” (Decision 133/2025 | Scottish Information Commissioner).

Separately, NHS Fife sought and obtained information from its legal representatives, Central Legal Office, on the cost of legal services.
In the interests of transparency, and on the basis that similar information was being actively sought, NHS Fife made the decision to publish this information on its website with costs up until 31st May 2025, which at the time amounted to £220,465.93.

While it has been widely reported that NHS Fife was told to provide this information by the Scottish Information Commissioner, this is inaccurate. The information commissioner stated in his decision cited above that: “the withheld information the Authority provided to the Commissioner was obtained from CLO after the date it received the Applicants’ requests. This means the Commissioner cannot make a finding on, or require disclosure of, this information in his decision notice.” NHS Fife subsequently made the decision to publish the figures on its website up until 31 May 2025 in the interests of transparency, and on the basis that similar information was being actively sought.

Why did NHS Fife seek a Rule 50 (Privacy) Order at the start of the tribunal proceedings?
NHS Fife has a duty of care to all its staff. For those staff members involved in the tribunal, particular consideration was given to protect their safety, security and wellbeing. We believed that having the tribunal heard in private would mitigate the risks to the safety and wellbeing of all staff members attending or identified during the tribunal proceedings.

Why did NHS Fife seek to restrict Tribunal Tweets, and public access to live proceedings from the tribunal?
Following the end of the earlier tribunal hearings in February 2025, NHS Fife’s legal representatives were contacted by the Employment Tribunal and asked to provide comment on tweets by the Tribunal Tweets account on the X platform after a complaint by a member of the public. The account had originally been granted permission to live-tweet proceedings on the basis their reporting would be ‘fair and accurate’. The Health Board’s legal representatives analysed the tweets and highlighted several inaccuracies to the tribunal.

The tribunal subsequently ruled that Tribunal Tweets would be allowed to continue live reporting of the case; however, did state “It is a matter of concern nevertheless that mistakes were made, including writing a comment not by a witness or participant, but another observer, for example. The Tribunal reserves its position should further matters be brought to its attention, and the conditions for live tweeting provided previously are further breached”.

During the initial phase of proceedings there were also issues and disruption with the livestream due to the significant number of people granted access. To assist the smooth running of proceedings, our legal representatives sought to limit the stream to media as a means of reducing the opportunity for further disruption and interruptions. The livestream was disabled by the tribunal administrators for a time during the February hearing, because of these issues. The tribunal has since confirmed that it will continue to open the livestream to all that can be accommodated, for the July hearing dates, having implemented certain measures in this regard.

The Health Board appreciates that there are deeply entrenched views on both sides of the debate around single-sex spaces and has never sought to stifle fair and reasoned debate on the topic, asking only that any media coverage is respectful, fair, balanced, accurate, and distinguishes fact from opinion.

What changes have NHS Fife made in response to the recent Supreme Court ruling on the legal definition of a woman?
NHS Fife acknowledges the Supreme Court’s ruling and other developments in this area. Work is underway across the entirety of the health board's estate (including toilets, changing and locker rooms) to identify areas where any adaptions may be required and schedule any work that may be necessary to improve facilities. We are committed to delivering appropriate and respectful workplace arrangements.

  • NHS Fife is not seeking to suggest that Sex Matters have contributed to the behaviour or issues mentioned above. [ENDS]

Decision 133/2025 | Scottish Information Commissioner

Costs of a specified employment tribunal

https://www.foi.scot/decision-1332025

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