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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #31

1000 replies

nauticant · 18/07/2025 12:49

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30, found here: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30

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24
Instructions · 18/07/2025 15:40

Even if you believed every word Dr Upton said, you'd have to wonder whether he was really cut out to be a doctor. That's a high demand, high stress profession. If being told by a female colleague that he shouldn't be in the female changing room is all it takes to turn him into a sobbing mess, how on earth could anyone have any confidence that he could do his actual job? I hear he has moved into Psychiatry now. I work in mental health- if people noticing he is male and saying so does that to him, he must spend the entirety of his working life sobbing and datixing, because many, many mh patients will feel under no obligation to go along with his delusions or to pretend otherwise...

SternJoyousBee · 18/07/2025 15:40

NebulousCatWhistler · 18/07/2025 15:35

The mad thing about this whole gender critical views / gender ideology views argument is that even if you weren't at all gender critical and you 100% believed in gender ideology, like these witnesses in court seem to, most women including these witnesses would still be 100% horrified at actually having to get changed and clean up a period flood in front of a bloke. Even a bloke with long hair, pronouns and a female gender identity.

Is every woman who doesn't want to clean up her period in front of someone who she knows is male "gender critical"?

Edited

They would be horrified and then feel guilty about their very natural feelings. That is one of the most dangerous aspect of this madness; women and girls being taught to ignore their instincts.

CriticalCondition · 18/07/2025 15:40

Is it bad that I'm so invested in this that when NC says at any point 'please turn to page xxx' I recognise the page number and know what's coming?

BezMills · 18/07/2025 15:41

From TT

J - how much more time?
NC - another half an hour
J - if you can shave time off that

NC nods, glances down at her ring. A light has appeared on it. One single green gem of light.

NC turn to bundle -your answer to Q9 your asked about further incidents in the dept, not witnessed personally but aware of behaviours in dept. Would you turn to page 460 part of ED's interview with AG "if Beth walks in Sandie walks out if I witnessed this I would deal with it.
LC -if it had been brought to me as direct info, yes I would deal with it.
NC p534 the first four lines, one occasion resus patient
NC - allegation is that SP took herself out of situation with Upton in cubical If Upton had thought she had actually done this, isn't this an urgent matter of fitness of conduct, misconduct
LC I would have expected to hear about it. I would expect it to be reported to me

Fifer : that richt there is the soond ay someone sneezin a big snottery lung fu' into a tissue of lies. Ye'd almost feel sorry for the tissue. It didn't want to be made of lies and full ay snotters.

NC it is not nec to be harm to a patient before this comes to you
LC this needs to be discussed to coming to this
NC it's incredible serious if it happens at all
LC agree is serious matter
NC given this, suggestion that she was so bigoted that she couldn't work with DU, then his not reporting is a neglect of his duty
LC I can't speak to why it didn't come to me
NC he didn't perform this duty
LC can't comment not involved
NC if false it's a damaging lie, so serious and it would have been career ending if reported to NMC

Fifer : uh oh. Someone's got a fit richt on the land mine. It's aw ready clicked doon.

LC - can't comment on what NMC would do

Fifer : dingy woosh tae that. We aw ken that's a career-ender. That's finishin yer days until yer pension as a cleaner doon the Templehall laundrette.

NC - email from KS to DU, you're not copied, have you seen this before.
LC No NC do you want to read it now
LC -Yes please

Fifer : translation - please naw, can a phone a neebor?

NC - both email at top of page and reply from KS J clarifies two pages need to be read
NC - first of those at 12.30 - starts mentioning you, reporting that KS had spoken to you and you were sad you couldn't speak to him because you wanted to condemn SP actions

NC lets LC read. She taps her ring. When did another light come on? There's two green dots now.

Nc do you agree this would have been improper
LC - i didn't say that. I would have said that we need to look into this, and that this isn't what we expect as a dept
NC - it was far too soon to meet with SP to tell her her actions were unacceptable
LC yes

Three dots. NC is expediting matters. Whatever is happening, it's happening soon

NC - do you agree therefore that it was inappropriate that KS said that DU had the support of the senior dr and nursing teams
LC {agrees}

LC looks queasy. They can smell the trap. They can't move forward, they can't move backward. If they pick up that foot, the landmine goes off.

NC email MC to ED, you (and others) headline protected characteristic incident. Maggie talks about any need for investigation but ED can't do it. And she would be right about that?

LC no I...(muffled sound)

NC refers to bundle. [Discussion about pages]

FOUR LIGHTS, the fourth one is blue. What does it mean. Is it a fitness ring telling NC she needs to take a walk, or is it something else...

NC 12th January email from KS to all the same people in to or CC line, but with the addition of Dr Upton. Compare those two emails the people they are addressed to, same subject line but prefixed 're:' this suggests this is a response to something
LC I don't know

LC moves her hand forward, almost like so can see the lights on the ring in her peripheral vision, without shifting her steely gaze from her prize.

Fifth light, violet

NC but we don't see what that's a response to But if we go back, it relates to previous email
LC - I cant comment to that
NC - you were copied in to that email from KS. Kate at this point with ED still in copy ED, ED is taking lead in investigation. Everyone is now aware that ED shouldn't be involved. MC says ED can't do investigating, but days later, now ED is still investigating
LC - I really don't know. I don't know who authorised ED first place

Fifer : she sounds like Mavis Reilly aff ay Coronation Street. (attempts Corrie accent and fails badly) Ah don't really knerrrr.

NC if this is right, that 729 is a reply to MC email of 5January, are you surprised no responses

TriesNotToBeCynical · 18/07/2025 15:41

prh47bridge · 18/07/2025 14:40

Considering that as a legal question, yes. Being asexual is a sexual orientation, and is therefore a protected characteristic.

This is where law parts company with simple logic; but fair enough.

NebulousCatWhistler · 18/07/2025 15:42

I thought pregnancy & maternity was one-way? You can't claim discrimination on grounds of not being pregnant?

ThatCyanCat · 18/07/2025 15:43

Instructions · 18/07/2025 15:40

Even if you believed every word Dr Upton said, you'd have to wonder whether he was really cut out to be a doctor. That's a high demand, high stress profession. If being told by a female colleague that he shouldn't be in the female changing room is all it takes to turn him into a sobbing mess, how on earth could anyone have any confidence that he could do his actual job? I hear he has moved into Psychiatry now. I work in mental health- if people noticing he is male and saying so does that to him, he must spend the entirety of his working life sobbing and datixing, because many, many mh patients will feel under no obligation to go along with his delusions or to pretend otherwise...

Psychiatry is surely the worst place for him to be. Are mentally ill patients supposed to look at him and say he's a woman?

Panicmode1 · 18/07/2025 15:44

DuchessofReality · 18/07/2025 15:40

As an aside, using this calculator here:

https://tall.life/height-percentile-calculator-age-country/

in the UK, a male of 6 foot 2 is in the tallest 5% of males. A female of that height is in the tallest 0.02% of females.

As a total aside I must have one of the highest percentages of tall men living in my house in the country - DH is 6'6, DS 1 is 6ft 4, DS2 and DS 3 are both 6ft 2 and DD is 6ft (I'm the titch at 5'8).

I walked past someone on the street the other day who was taller than DH by at least 2 inches - I remember thinking he must have been SO tall because I live amongst giants 😂

Thank you to everyone doing sterling work on the deconstruction of evidence - am at work so only dipping in and out when I can!

rebmacesrevda · 18/07/2025 15:44

SternJoyousBee · 18/07/2025 15:40

They would be horrified and then feel guilty about their very natural feelings. That is one of the most dangerous aspect of this madness; women and girls being taught to ignore their instincts.

Totally agree. We've all had a bad feeling about a guy before. That's the result of millenia of evolution. Our bodies tell us when we're in danger. The thought of women ignoring that feeling is so worrying.

Waitwhat23 · 18/07/2025 15:45

Oh, NC is just slowly and surely drawing in that net.....

Boiledbeetle · 18/07/2025 15:45

ThatCyanCat · 18/07/2025 15:43

Psychiatry is surely the worst place for him to be. Are mentally ill patients supposed to look at him and say he's a woman?

"I'm a woman but you're not Jesus" isn't going to go down well is it!

13planets · 18/07/2025 15:45

@DuchessofReality the last census showed 1% of 16 to 24 yo identity as transgender.

So on balance of probabilities: highly highly likely a very tall young “woman” is actually a man presenting as female

MarieDeGournay · 18/07/2025 15:45

NC - re confidentiality please look at p720. That is KS email to all ED consultants. Were you aware all ED told about Beth's side of story
LC no
NC - p725. you were copied onto that email

You saw that coming, didn't you,CriticalCondition?
You were shouting WHAT ABOUT P725!? at the screen, weren't outGrin

EnfysPreseli · 18/07/2025 15:47

NebulousCatWhistler · 18/07/2025 15:42

I thought pregnancy & maternity was one-way? You can't claim discrimination on grounds of not being pregnant?

Or not having a disability?

MyAmpleSheep · 18/07/2025 15:48

NebulousCatWhistler · 18/07/2025 15:42

I thought pregnancy & maternity was one-way? You can't claim discrimination on grounds of not being pregnant?

Three one-way characteristics are disability, pregnancy, GR.

Positive discrimination for disability and pregnancy is expressly allowed (in different terms). No exception is made to allow positive discrimination ion for GR people.

the EA2010 doesn’t say (for direct discrimination) that B is discriminated against by A because of a protected characteristic held by B - it just says because of a protected characteristic.

For indirect discrimination it specifically states “because of a protected characteristic held by B.” The omission of the three words in direct discrimination is significant.

BezMills · 18/07/2025 15:50

From TT

NC if this is right, that 729 is a reply to MC email of 5January, are you surprised no responses
NC no replies to email in chain?
LC - busy at that time of year, not idea why no replies
NC - re confidentiality please look at p720. That is KS email to all ED consultants. Were you aware all ED told about Beth's side of story
LC no

Fifer : wait fer it

NC - p725. you were copied onto that email ...25 January. Went to a number of people. From ED who was apparently investigating, to DU and copying in a number of people, including you

Fifer : kaboom.

[checking bundle]C bottom of 725, still copied to same people This is where DU replies 'Hi Esther' with whole statement attached to email chain. You see him saying 'please see attached'. it's a good bet that is was seen by all those in chain We see that from what ED says in reply

Fifer : ah love hoo she pretends that she hasnae got the entire thing memorised. It's like watching Columbo repeats on a sick day.

NC - again quite improperly it is clear that this incident and SP suspension will have been widely discussed at this point
LC - from the nursing side (mentions two plus her) as for doctors can't comment
NC The impression on this chain is that he is entitled to talk to anyone

NC it doesn't say in terms, but it's clear that everyone is on his side from this email from ED? she has come to a judgement
LC - i can't comment

Fifer : Cannae or willnae?

NC you were copied (incoherent)

NC taps her ring. Did LC disappear for 3 frames of reality - no she couldn't have. That's impossible. She looks haunted, as if she was taken away by The Ghost of FAFO Future, and shown next weeks's Courier front page.

Boiledbeetle · 18/07/2025 15:50

Done for today.

Chariothorses · 18/07/2025 15:51

Not quite!

LC - I think she had an intolerance to people who are transgender JR what made you think that LC because she told me she didnt agree with a male changing in female CR

Boiledbeetle · 18/07/2025 15:51

Not done it turns out

Boiledbeetle · 18/07/2025 15:52

Five minutes break

GreenFriedTomato · 18/07/2025 15:52

Break time.

LC has now stated that Sandie was intolerant to anyone trans. Because she had objected to beth changing in the female changing rooms.
That is not an intolerance to trans in general FFS!!!

Oooh....there's a new development

jawsnsharks · 18/07/2025 15:52

Whaaaaa?

MarieDeGournay · 18/07/2025 15:53

I don't know how JR got back in with this:
JR - turn to p466, you were asked about this interview with AG, specifically SP doesn't have a tolerance for people who are transgender, what did you
mean by that
LC - I think she had an intolerance to people who are transgender JR what made you think that
LC because she told me she didnt agree with a male changing in female CR

but she didn't really help her side, did she? Being intolerant of trans people = not agreeing with male in female.🙄

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