NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #31

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30, found here: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30

In case helpful:

NC - and this is the heart of this - her GC beliefs that she was prepared to tell him he shouldn't be in a LC - no she was put on leave because of the way she expressed her views to the Dr NC- what was it the way she expressed her views? LC he felt vulnerable, scaredNC - it doesn't tell her how SP actually behaved LC that's why she went on special leave NC- at the point this decision was made, all you knew was that Dr U was distresssed LC it was not in line with LMC code
NC - the decision to put her on leave was because of her GC belief. She expressed her views LC we felt a breach of code of conduct because of the views and the manner. NC- a female nurse complaining of the unwanted presence of a man is a complaint on the basis of sex
NC - let's say it's an ordinary man who does this, would this be harassment LC if Beth sees herself as female then she has a right to be there, advice from EDI NC if Dr U presence in CR was relating to sex it's fair to say she was put on leave was related to this.

@anyolddinosaur Dr Upton believed and recorded on Datix that Sandie had looked for him deliberately as it was in the middle of her shift. There's also disagreement about who was standing where in the changing room(!).

DU now agrees it was that she got her period
unexpectedly and went for her locker, for some reason this wasn't a possibility that occurred to this self proclaimed "biological woman".

It also shows how shabby the investigation was. If they'd taken full written statements from both sides early and quickly, there would be less of a dispute than taking Dr Upton's interpretations as fact.

Similarly to allegedly being compared to a rapist, that's in the Datix. Both Sandie and DU accounts concur she didn't say anything about rapists. This was DU interpretation of Sandie saying something about men in women's prisons.

NC - but you said he is in the dept enough to know Beth and because people saw him regularly, then you know that people only have to see Dr U to see he's not female.
No
Are you saying you weren't aware he's a man
Not at first, not until engaged in conversation.
😄
So they all knew he was a man, after a wee chat..

Do they claim to report absolutely everything? No news reports will cover absolutely everything. Why would they get into trouble?

Oh Naomi you are so so good!

This is a total aside, but in reading the FWS pre action JR review claim against CoCL about the Kenwood bat hing ponds, they don’t raise the issue of unlawful discrimination against non-GR men being refused entry to the women’s pond on the basis of their lack of GR. I am trying to work out why- they’re well clever enough to have thought about it.

again from TT in case useful
LC - she was put on leave for us to have investigation NC- away from Dr U. A female who objects to a man in the CR is objecting to a man. LC - Beth was told she could change there can you rephrase the q
NC - SP was put on leave because she rejected the sexual harassment

LC - no it was a breach of the NMC code of conduct NC - refers to bundle - interview with Angela Glancy. Answer to q6. What you did with the info from IB, any need to update staff? LC - no, maj of staff aware of Beth
NC - he didn't wear a badge or tell people he's trans

NC - but you said he is in the dept enough to know Beth and because people saw him regularly, then you know that people only have to see Dr U to see he's not female. No Are you saying you weren't aware he's a man Not at first, not until engaged in conversation. Not sure what diff

NC- do you agree people have differing ability to recognise that a man is a man and that people who have suffered sexual abuse quite attune to that? LC yes NC - but even so, it's not unreasonable to be upset by a man in CR

NC Are you saying you weren't aware he's a man
LC Not at first, not until engaged in conversation.

my current earworm: Elvis singing 'A little less conversation..'
😄

This is clearly bullshit, women can tell from behind whether it is a man or a woman 99.99% of the time.

I think @MyAmpleSheep is referring to the nursing managers not reporting these alleged racist comments Sandie made - they are supposed to report any violation of the NMC guidlines

I'm guessing because it is clear that (inlike most at Fife) Peggie is clearly a shero who stand up to selfish people doing really anti-social things (such as being male and entering the women's changing room, or cooking really smelly food).

As an aside I used to sit next to a guy who would buy mcdonalds, sit at his desk and take 30 minutes to eat it. It drove me crazy to the point I'd just walk out and take another 30 mins lunch the second he sat down.

from tt
NC - isn't it the reasonable thing for the man to remove himself as the one male in that CR. LC - He had the right to be in that changing room. NC - where did you get the advice 'there's nothing we can do' LC - ED

LC - there is nothing I can do to ease Sandies anxiety but there were alternatives given to her to ease that. NC - when she asked you those questions, you didn't treat it as unreasonable? Her problem with Upton using that CR? LC no she could ask that, not unreasonable to ask

NC - you din't relay that message, ED? LC - don't know NC - but 'we were advised...this was relayed to Sandie' LC-Esther had said NC - nurses hadn't been told LC no NC where do you change LC my office NC - when did you last use them to change?

LC - 2020 prior to promotion NC so this policy, we heard from EP, informal meetings between consultants and senior nurses, this policy of letting upton using Cr was not communicated to those expect to undress in front a man LC - I wasn't at that meeting.

No, I was thinking of it not being reported by TT. I realize they don’t promise a complete transcription, but it’s an odd allegation to leave out entirely.

From TT

LC we felt a breach of code of conduct because of the views and the manner.

I read some quote tweets that say NC has just got them to admit it WAS the views! 💥 💥

From TT

NC it's pit of your stomach stuff isn't it
LC - yes I suppose
NC - and offensive if it's what your beliefs are, it was inevitable
LC - she didn't try to deny what would happen, she didn't highlight she was upset to me

LC fiddles with her chonky new ring, spinning it round her on her finger. It's a little bit big on her, almost like it's a standard size, and designed for bigger hands.

NC - ref to bundle, SP written response. Her answer please read that and I'll ask the question.
NC do you agree that this is a perfectly understandable response to put a brave face, but to be distressed and upset
LC That might be the case but not relayed to me. Can't comment

That "can't comment" is met with a small tight smile, fleetingly seen. She stops fiddling with the ring, then starts again.

(I am not really watching, this is imaginarium)

NC - Dr Upton is a 'transwoman' an adult male who wants to be treated as a woman, are we agreed?
LC - yes
NC it's clear that SP knows he's a man
LC - that's her opinion

From the other room an exclamation

"HOOSE!!! Ah jist needed 'that's just like her opinion man' on the Bingo! GET. ME. PEYED."

Big Sond frowns. This is serious. Plus he didn't have it on his caird. That's twice he's been done on the Bullshit Bingo. He's losing money hand over fist here.

NC - and this is the heart of this - her GC beliefs that she was prepared to tell him he shouldn't be in a
LC - no she was put on leave because of the way she expressed her views to the Dr
NC- what was it the way she expressed her views?
LC he felt vulnerable, scared
NC - it doesn't tell her how SP actually behaved
LC that's why she went on special leave
NC- at the point this decision was made, all you knew was that Dr U was distresssed
LC it was not in line with LMC code
NC - the decision to put her on leave was because of her GC belief. She expressed her views
LC we felt a breach of code of conduct because of the views and the manner.
NC- a female nurse complaining of the unwanted presence of a man is a complaint on the basis of sex

NC taps her ring with the side of her thumb. Could it be morse, some kind of code, is she mentally listening to Shakira while toying with this mouse? Hard to tell.

Fifer Ah'll say this about this new witness. They're no like the hips, I'll jist leave it at that.

NC - let's say it's an ordinary man who does this, would this be harassment LC if Beth sees herself as female then she has a right to be there, advice from EDI NC if Dr U presence in CR was relating to sex it's fair to say she was put on leave was related to this

Big Sond : Here we go, Fuckin Pete again!

LC - she was put on leave for us to have investigation
NC- away from Dr U. A female who objects to a man in the CR is objecting to a man.
LC - Beth was told she could change there can you rephrase the q
NC - SP was put on leave because she rejected the sexual harassment
LC - no it was a breach of the NMC code of conduct
NC - refers to bundle - interview with Angela Glancy. Answer to q6. What you did with the info from IB, any need to update staff?
LC - no, maj of staff aware of Beth
NC - he didn't wear a badge or tell people he's trans

Fifer : Jist a ginormous loddie wi size 13 ballet flats on, stottin aboot the place.

NC - but you said he is in the dept enough to know Beth and because people saw him regularly, then you know that people only have to see Dr U to see he's not female. No
LC Are you saying you weren't aware he's a man Not at first, not until engaged in conversation. Not sure what diff
NC- do you agree people have differing ability to recognise that a man is a man and that people who have suffered sexual abuse quite attune to that?
LC yes
NC - but even so, it's not unreasonable to be upset by a man in CR

NC takes a careful sip. Her ring makes a suprisingly loud thud as it touches the glass, like it's very heavy and very dense.

NC - isn't it the reasonable thing for the man to remove himself as the one male in that CR.
LC - He had the right to be in that changing room.

Fifer : did he aye. Accordin to wha? Professor Google wi the fancy job straight out of big school?

NC - where did you get the advice 'there's nothing we can do'
LC - ED

Fifer : so LC's stitchin ED up. JR and Big Gill are blamin Dr Kate. It's a circular firin squad if ivir ye seen ane.

LC - there is nothing I can do to ease Sandies anxiety but there were alternatives given to her to ease that.
NC - when she asked you those questions, you didn't treat it as unreasonable? Her problem with Upton using that CR?
LC no she could ask that, not unreasonable to ask
NC - you din't relay that message, ED?
LC - don't know
NC - but 'we were advised...this was relayed to Sandie'
LC-Esther had said
NC - nurses hadn't been told
LC no
NC where do you change
LC my office
NC - when did you last use them to change?
LC - 2020 prior to promotion
NC so this policy, we heard from EP, informal meetings between consultants and senior nurses, this policy of letting upton using Cr was not communicated to those expect to undress in front a man
LC - I wasn't at that meeting.

NC hasn't touched the ring for a few minutes. Ominous?

Don't know, but if I were them I would want to make sure I kept men out of the Ladies Pond and didn't accidentally give the Corporation a back door way of letting all men in.

LC making out that this 6ft plus man passed as a female unless you stopped and had a conversation. So it was only his voice that gave him away. He completely passed as female. To nurses? I'm sure his height would have drawn attention first and then it would have been immediately obvious this person was not female.

Maybe LC needs to take those glasses off her head and put them on her face.

There was a possible explanation that the transcriber may not have trusted their ears 100% that they heard it correctly and skipped on to catch up with the next bit.
It's so unlikely that TT would censor something, there must be another explanation...

Hi @BezMills don't want to duplicate your (far wittier!) posts so will hand back to you...! Thanks!

LC - He had the right to be in that changing room.

He?

From TT

NC one alt to SP was to change in toilet
LC - yes
NC youve seen her in there
LC yes regularly
NC - nurses need to change at work for reasons of hygiene
LC - I didn't say change in the toilets. SP didn't ask what alternatives were
NC - for reasons of hygiene it is unacceptable to change in toilet
LC yes, but people do that.

{there is a pause in proceedings}

Fifer : Fucks sake min. Even ah ken ye deh get cheynged in a hospital toilet. Dirtier than a cludgie on a plane! De ye even ken hoo mony sick folk there are in the Vic. Hunners an hunners. All different diseases, pretty much aw the diseases ye can catch in Cardenden.

NC it's clear that SP knows he's a man
LC - that's her opinion

And thank goodness, bearing in mind her profession.

Rather worried about everyone else at NHS Fife though.

I'm sorry, I thought it was a reference to TT.

I didn't know that! That's a great tip for the future, thank you!

NC - for reasons of hygiene it is unacceptable to change in toilet
LC yes, but people do that.
{there is a pause in proceedings}

Is the pause while everyone considers their options should they need a hospital in Fife?