Why is anti-trans so important?

[Elizabethbd]

So, I will preface this with saying that I’m not in the UK, and my country does not yet have the kind of anti-trans debate as there is in the English speaking world.

So, I have a hard time understanding why this is such an important question to many women.

Surely there are women’s issues that affect a larger part of society.

I’m thinking rape and violence towards women, homelesness, sex trafficking and honour killings. Why are these issues not more important and worthy of attention, as they affect so many more women than those who come into contact with trans women (or men)?

There are a lot of tells, more than just height and thinning hair. It is in the motion, the gait, not just the voice, adams apple, lack of hips, square jaw, height, limb size, hand size, philtrum width etc.

We managed to police it well for decades and decades. We had the ability to call the police and have the male arrested and charged for Indecent Exposure.

We've lost that. We have rules in society for a reason. We don't throw our hands up in the air and give in. We strengthen safeguards.

So it's "aggressive, dismissive, and frankly bankrupt hideous behaviour" to call out transwomen trespassing into womens spaces, but it is not aggressive, dismissive, and frankly bankrupt hideous behaviour of these same males to enter our spaces.

Yeah, I see the agenda here.

Yes. Do you genuinely think that in a world where men study for years to be a teacher or priest to get close to children and groom families that a male spending 10 seconds putting on a dress is 'too much effort'? Especially when now, they are allowed to do that and enter? And no one can call them out? Maybe use some logic and critical thinking.

Good to see you're beginning to understand. Here are more males who put on dresses to enter female spaces. It's a real thing.

This is the problem with really long threads. It takes ages to read through and if you reply to posts as you read them, it means you're replying to someone who may have changed their mind later and you don't know until you get up to that post and the thread has moved on.

But, the information is good for any other silent readers who may be still making up their minds or not fully up on the issue.

By the fact that you've referred to a bathroom, it sounds like you're from the USA

@Eolhc1990 has stated that she is Irish and living in the UK.

On this board it is often assumed that just because someone uses "bathroom" to refer to "toilet", they must be American.

It appears that some British people and UK English speakers who are not British do use "bathroom", such as Eolhc1990, as do many US English speakers who are not American.

"Restroom" is more likely to be the term primarily used in the US but not in other English-speaking countries.

so maybe you don't have any laws to protect your rights so you haven't anything to loose.

There are federal laws that protect women's rights, but the US Constitution lacks specific clauses that explicitly secure women's rights.

I'll admit the one thing that makes the mumsnet subscription worthwhile is that you can pull up all of one posters posts in a thread, same as you can for the OPs posts, rather than having to go off and do an advanced search, it does make coming to a thread, especially a fast moving one, later, easier to see what a poster has then gone on to say.

Yes! And given that TRA's and many trans identifying males are ANTI-WOMEN, I am anti- those people but not trans as a class. I have zero issues with TIFS apart from not sharing the ideology.

@Elizabethbd

The reason that "rape and violence towards women, homelesness, sex trafficking and honour killings" are a risk to women is because of the behaviour of men.

A TransWomen are a societal expression of men. Women can't be a transgender woman.

For women to participate in society equally, they have to have the freedom to congregate without men, to remove the risk that men bring with them.

With respect, what difference does it make?

A trans person is just someone who, for reasons best known to themselves, says they are the opposite sex to the one they actually are. We're not mind readers. We don't know who is saying it because they really believe it and who is saying it for explicitly nefarious purposes, and this is actually another argument in favour of trusting no one who says they are trans rather than trusting everyone who says they are trans. Either way, no male person belongs in women's spaces and I am glad the Supreme Court has been clear about this.

It doesn't matter how sad it makes them not to be included in women's rape crisis groups or communal showers. That's not the relevant consideration. The relevant consideration is whether those spaces would still function correctly as single sex spaces with trans women in them. And the answer is no.

It is ‘interesting’ that women wanting female only provision of intimate care, the eradication of limiting stereotypes, and holistic healthcare for childhood distress is being understood as being motivated by feelings about males.

In the case of this board, I can see why, at first glance, someone might think the motivation for posting is trans related. However, all you need to do is read a few posts on any thread, to see that women’s rights and needs are at the centre of what is written. If gender ideology did not encroach on women’s rights or child development, I imagine there would be very few posts about trans people.

It is hard to see how anything other than misogyny underpins this framing. Women should not be expected to accommodate/include any males in their women’s rights advocacy, regardless of how minoratised they are. Any expectation to do so is blatantly positioning women as secondary to men with trans identities.

But it’s not about statistically who you are most likely to encounter, it’s about statistically how much of a potential threat a person is when you encounter them. Men who identify as women are as much of a threat to women as men who do not identify as women. We know that from new studies into their rates of criminality and our own prison statistics (which actually show that men who identify as women have a higher proclivity for sexual crimes than a man who doesn’t).

This boils down to - some people think that it’s OK to deny women provision of female only services if the males who are granted access have specific characteristics. When challenged about this, the defence is usually based on how very special and rare the characteristic is.

This argument seems to be gradually dying in the same way ‘TWAW’ died. The more common claim now is that there is no such thing as ‘biologically female’ and so there must not be, or cannot be, a female category based on biology.

Grifters gonna grift!!

As there isn’t any definition of presenting as a man or a woman, and many trans people don’t identify as either, it’s not really a question of presentation. Gender is a completely subjective concept, so the only practical options are single sex or mixed sex.

Good to see posters like @Eolhc1990 change their mind when they suddenly see the issue.

And in terms of statistics, you don't have to be a statistician to appreciate that a man, any man, who wants access to unconsenting women will constitute a threat.

As pp have said, good men stay out so bad men stand out.

It is irrelevant how many male people have surgeries removing their penis and testicles. it really is.

Can you explain the exact difference between a male person who loses their penis and testicles due to injury or disease and one who has them removed due to elective surgery to suit their philosophical belief? The exact differences?

Should one be allowed into the female single sex space in your opinion ? Both? Or neither? How can we tell which male person no longer has a penis and testes and which ones do?

If you want to hear voices of the vulnerable and marginalised try Paddy O'Gorman's podcast. The first episode of season 2 gave women outside Limerick prison an opportunity to talk about how the transgender prisoners affected them. He returned to the issue in later podcasts, but I think listening to his whole output, including stuff with nothing to do with gender issues, would be educational for some young people living in a privileged and protected bubble.

http://paddyspodcast.ie/

Absolutely get lost with your “newsflash.” Do not assume what I do and do not know.

In fairness, she was replying to your post where you appeared not to know that.

Did you have to put that in capitals? If so, I’m not too proud to let you know that I’m a RAPE SURVIVOR as well. I was drugged and raped aged 28, if that makes you any happier to hear. So let’s not go down the ignorant route anymore.

Many of us here are rape survivors. Stop calling people ignorant when you don’t seem to understand what the trans movement actually is.

That makes it all the more disappointing that you don't support the rights of other women to say no to male people who want to disrespect their boundaries.

You were the one who started with the insults.

"deadpantrashcan · Yesterday 19:26
This is such an ignorant and honestly stupid outlook."

You don't like getting called ignorant? Then maybe don't insult other posters first.

I’m fine with being insulted. I’m just asking for there to be less assumptions. We’re all going to continue to disagree and continue insulting each other so it’s futile. All the best.

Sorry that my rape experience has disappointed you. I was actually helped by a trans woman at the time. So forgive me if we have different perspectives. But again, sorry to have disappointed you and that my rape did not educate me enough.