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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"We have always been here"

599 replies

DiamondThrone · 22/06/2025 14:34

Been noticing this a lot. It seems to be the new #TWAW #nodebate #bekind, after those didn't work.

I mean - lots of things have "always been here". Like women, for instance 😄

Just interested in new terms that arise, and how they are used to try and shut down comment.

OP posts:
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TheOtherRaven · 26/06/2025 08:02

And to no purpose other than 'me smash it'.

There is no vision of what lies on the other side, no purpose. It's just destruction for the hell of it, and issues with boundaries that impede antisocial behaviours dressed up in a lot of pseudo intellectual waffle.

CassOle · 26/06/2025 08:24

Oh, I think Foucault et al were quite clear about the motivations for 'queering' the boundary between adult and child.

A clip (Derrick Jensen - Queer Theory Jeopardy) that has been shared before, but it never fails to astound.

MassiveWordSalad · 26/06/2025 08:52

CassOle · 26/06/2025 08:24

Oh, I think Foucault et al were quite clear about the motivations for 'queering' the boundary between adult and child.

A clip (Derrick Jensen - Queer Theory Jeopardy) that has been shared before, but it never fails to astound.

I hadn’t watched that before, thanks for posting @CassOle

It really illustrates the moral vacuum at the heart of queer theory and postmodernism.

DeanElderberry · 26/06/2025 09:59

I never saw that Derrick Jensen clip before. He is so good, and hecklers make their own position so clear.

AstonScrapingsNameChange · 26/06/2025 16:44

suggestionsplease1 · 25/06/2025 13:28

I'm a woman who has had non trans women follow me into toilets before and made me feel uncomfortable in gay clubs - and I personally have never felt uncomfortable with a transwomen in the toilets and quite happy they use them rather than the men's. My female friends all feel similar - we are women - why are you dismissing our feelings? It's behaviours that are problematic.

Firstly - nobody is 'dismissing your feelings'. But what we are doing is suggesting that feelings aren't a terribly good basis for law, since they are changeable and not objectively verifiable.

Suggesting that someone is 'dismissing your feelings' because they happen to feel differently is a little childish. Suggesting that anyone who doesn't place your feelings front and centre all the time is dismissing you in some unreasonable way sounds unhealthily self focused.

Your feelings just aren't that significant to anyone else apart from your nearest and dearest.

Secondly - that sounds a bit transphobic. How do you know the people following you were non trans women? Since transwomen walk among us and you can't tell, apparently. Or they could have been femme presenting transmen. You can't tell someones gender by looking at them. This is how self ID just falls apart.

DiamondThrone · 26/06/2025 21:36

suggestionsplease1 · 25/06/2025 13:28

I'm a woman who has had non trans women follow me into toilets before and made me feel uncomfortable in gay clubs - and I personally have never felt uncomfortable with a transwomen in the toilets and quite happy they use them rather than the men's. My female friends all feel similar - we are women - why are you dismissing our feelings? It's behaviours that are problematic.

How did you know they were non trans women?

And how did you know the transwomen were transwomen?

(By they way, they will get jolly angry at you calling them "transwomen". The sacred text is "trans women", because reasons.)

OP posts:
JanesLittleGirl · 26/06/2025 22:42

Actually, we have always been here. Not so sure about you guys.

Enough4me · 27/06/2025 00:40

Far, far back in the history of time our bony fish ancestors (sarcopterygians like Tiktaaliks) had trans existence - pink bows hidden in gills.
Only they didn't and, even if bows existed, having a bow attached or wearing lipstick or growing moobs changes nothing.
Some men in lipstick may look like fish but I couldn't possibly comment...

MistyGreenAndBlue · 27/06/2025 01:37

suggestionsplease1 · 24/06/2025 21:55

Just ChatGPT it for examples, it's not difficult 🤷‍♀️

ChatGPT

You said:
References to trans people in ancient texts
ChatGPT said:
References to transgender and gender-nonconforming people can be found across a wide range of ancient texts and cultures. While the terminology and concepts were different from modern understandings of gender identity, historical records show that many societies recognized—and often respected—individuals who lived outside the gender binary. Here's an overview of notable references from various cultures:

  1. Mesopotamia
Gala priests of Inanna (Sumer, ~2000 BCE):

The Gala were temple priests devoted to the goddess Inanna, many of whom were assigned male at birth but took on feminine names, clothing, and speech patterns.

Inanna’s mythology includes references to gender transformation. In one hymn, she turns men into women and vice versa.

  1. Ancient Egypt
While there's no direct evidence of a "transgender identity" in the modern sense, Hatshepsut, a female pharaoh (~1478 BCE), adopted male regalia and was portrayed with a beard, possibly reflecting a gender role shift in service to power and divinity.

Some scholars also point to gender-fluid representations of gods like Atum or Hapi, the latter often depicted with both male and female physical features.

  1. Ancient India
Hindu texts and epics:

The Mahabharata includes the story of Shikhandi, born female (as Shikhandini), who later lives as a man and plays a pivotal role in battle.

The deity Shiva appears as Ardhanarishvara, a composite of Shiva and his consort Parvati, half-male and half-female—symbolizing the unity of masculine and feminine.

Hijras, a traditional third gender group in South Asia, are mentioned in ancient Sanskrit and Tamil texts. They held significant ritual roles.

  1. Ancient Greece and Rome
The Tiresias myth tells of a man transformed into a woman for several years and then back again, giving him insights into both genders.

The cult of Cybele, a mother goddess, included Galli, priests who were assigned male at birth but often castrated themselves and wore women’s clothing, living as women or non-men.

Roman historians mention people who lived as a different gender, including Emperor Elagabalus (3rd century CE), who was said to have asked to be called a woman and even offered rewards to any physician who could perform gender-affirming surgery (though accounts may be biased or sensationalized).

  1. Indigenous and Non-Western Cultures
Although not "ancient texts" in the same way, many Indigenous oral traditions and pre-colonial records mention people with gender-diverse identities:

Two-Spirit people among many Native American cultures.

The fa'afafine in Samoa.

The bissu among the Bugis in Indonesia
, considered a meta-gender priestly class.

No no no no no no!
Is THIS what passes for research these days? Bloody Hell!
And I thought Wikipedia was the rock bottom. At least they occasionally tell people to cite sources for possible misinformation.

This "information" could have come from anywhere. It's completely worthless. I despair.

SerendipityJane · 27/06/2025 11:26

MistyGreenAndBlue · 27/06/2025 01:37

No no no no no no!
Is THIS what passes for research these days? Bloody Hell!
And I thought Wikipedia was the rock bottom. At least they occasionally tell people to cite sources for possible misinformation.

This "information" could have come from anywhere. It's completely worthless. I despair.

I think FWR has conclusively proved two things:

First - there is no "I" in "AI". And the "A" bit could not be more apparent.

Second - that David Walliams probably has a good case against Gemini and OpenAI for their using "Little Britain" to learn about ladies.

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 27/06/2025 11:43

Quite a lot of social media photos rely on smart filters to do the heavy lifting. How would an AI scrape differentiate these from undoctored images?
Would we expect to see any impact on requested images?

nonprofitorg · 13/07/2025 12:54

Grammarnut · 25/06/2025 23:11

'queer' is attached to queering the world, the curriculum in schools and universities. The main agenda is to break down all barriers.

I have just seen this, what do you mean by "queering the world"? And in relation to the agenda to break down all barriers, what exact changes to the curriculum in schools and universities? Thanks

DiamondThrone · 13/07/2025 13:00

nonprofitorg · 13/07/2025 12:54

I have just seen this, what do you mean by "queering the world"? And in relation to the agenda to break down all barriers, what exact changes to the curriculum in schools and universities? Thanks

Look up Queer Theory. You've got some fun to come!

OP posts:
suggestionsplease1 · 13/07/2025 15:45

MistyGreenAndBlue · 27/06/2025 01:37

No no no no no no!
Is THIS what passes for research these days? Bloody Hell!
And I thought Wikipedia was the rock bottom. At least they occasionally tell people to cite sources for possible misinformation.

This "information" could have come from anywhere. It's completely worthless. I despair.

You do know it's perfectly possible to generate starting point info from chat gpt to then enable a more robust, in depth research process for the subject matter it churns out, right?

I suppose you think it's necessary to spend 100 hours in a bricks and mortar library to find an individual reference?

No wonder so many jobs are being lost to AI if people can't grasp how to use it effectively themselves.

OldCrone · 13/07/2025 15:54

suggestionsplease1 · 13/07/2025 15:45

You do know it's perfectly possible to generate starting point info from chat gpt to then enable a more robust, in depth research process for the subject matter it churns out, right?

I suppose you think it's necessary to spend 100 hours in a bricks and mortar library to find an individual reference?

No wonder so many jobs are being lost to AI if people can't grasp how to use it effectively themselves.

So using as a starting point the load of ridiculous waffle you quoted from ChatGPT, what further research have you done?

Do you have any more intelligent comments to make from your own research?

Grammarnut · 13/07/2025 15:54

nonprofitorg · 13/07/2025 12:54

I have just seen this, what do you mean by "queering the world"? And in relation to the agenda to break down all barriers, what exact changes to the curriculum in schools and universities? Thanks

I suggest you look up queer theory. It will take pages here to explain.

MarieDeGournay · 13/07/2025 15:58

suggestionsplease1 · 13/07/2025 15:45

You do know it's perfectly possible to generate starting point info from chat gpt to then enable a more robust, in depth research process for the subject matter it churns out, right?

I suppose you think it's necessary to spend 100 hours in a bricks and mortar library to find an individual reference?

No wonder so many jobs are being lost to AI if people can't grasp how to use it effectively themselves.

Maybe, but if your post of 24/06 is supposed to be an example of how to use AI effectively 'enable a more robust, in depth research process', it has failed.

OldCrone · 13/07/2025 16:03

nonprofitorg · 13/07/2025 12:54

I have just seen this, what do you mean by "queering the world"? And in relation to the agenda to break down all barriers, what exact changes to the curriculum in schools and universities? Thanks

Some information about what's happening in schools:

www.transgendertrend.com/no-outsiders-queering-primary-classroom/

suggestionsplease1 · 13/07/2025 16:17

OldCrone · 13/07/2025 15:54

So using as a starting point the load of ridiculous waffle you quoted from ChatGPT, what further research have you done?

Do you have any more intelligent comments to make from your own research?

Quite simply, you are perfectly capable of further research yourself.

You could for eg. explore the fa'afafine further..

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17951883/

https://people.uleth.ca/~paul.vasey/PLV/Gender_Atypicality.html

Research here shows that cross gender identity does not inherently give rise to feelings of distress; rather the feelings of distress are a result of a condemnatory social environment. It is the culture and environment that an individual lives in that gives rise to the distress they experience, not their cross-identity per se.

Work in this area was relevant in changing the diagnosis of gender identity disorder in childhood (GIDC) (which formerly constituted a mental disorder as outlined by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 4th edition (DSM-IV-TR) to gender dysphoria in DSM-V to emphasize that it is the distress that is experienced that is the core aspect, rather than cross identity alone, which need not given rise to feelings of distress in a supportive culture.

What can the Samoan "Fa'afafine" teach us about the Western concept of gender identity disorder in childhood? - PubMed

This article examines whether gender identity disorder in childhood (GIDC) constitutes a mental disorder as outlined by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 4th edition (DSM-IV-TR). Data were collected in Samoa, a culture that is...

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17951883/

Annoyedone · 13/07/2025 16:31

So what you seem to be suggesting @suggestionsplease1 if that we erase gender norms and let people do and wear whatever they like they like well have a better world? See, I knew you were a feminist. Join us and make a world where gender is abolished.

OldCrone · 13/07/2025 16:33

suggestionsplease1 · 13/07/2025 16:17

Quite simply, you are perfectly capable of further research yourself.

You could for eg. explore the fa'afafine further..

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17951883/

https://people.uleth.ca/~paul.vasey/PLV/Gender_Atypicality.html

Research here shows that cross gender identity does not inherently give rise to feelings of distress; rather the feelings of distress are a result of a condemnatory social environment. It is the culture and environment that an individual lives in that gives rise to the distress they experience, not their cross-identity per se.

Work in this area was relevant in changing the diagnosis of gender identity disorder in childhood (GIDC) (which formerly constituted a mental disorder as outlined by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 4th edition (DSM-IV-TR) to gender dysphoria in DSM-V to emphasize that it is the distress that is experienced that is the core aspect, rather than cross identity alone, which need not given rise to feelings of distress in a supportive culture.

Quite simply, you are perfectly capable of further research yourself.

Yes, I am, thank you. And have I ever said I haven't done any?

But you're missing my point. I was asking you about what further research you've done. It's pretty pointless just doing a c&p from AI without making any comment about your own interpretation and your own thoughts on the matter.

You still don't seem to have done this as your post just seems to be copied from your sources (unless you are the author of that paper).

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 13/07/2025 16:37

It is the culture and environment that an individual lives in that gives rise to the distress they experience

the expectations society imposes on people because of their sex cause unhappiness? who knew?

as a PP notes, dismantling those expectations seems a healthier and more sustainable solution than radical surgery and demanding access to spaces one is not eligible for

OldCrone · 13/07/2025 16:38

Annoyedone · 13/07/2025 16:31

So what you seem to be suggesting @suggestionsplease1 if that we erase gender norms and let people do and wear whatever they like they like well have a better world? See, I knew you were a feminist. Join us and make a world where gender is abolished.

I think that would make @suggestionsplease1's head explode. They seem to be living up to their name by just regurgitating other people's opinions and research. I don't think they are capable of critical or original thinking.

CassOle · 13/07/2025 19:16

nonprofitorg · 13/07/2025 12:54

I have just seen this, what do you mean by "queering the world"? And in relation to the agenda to break down all barriers, what exact changes to the curriculum in schools and universities? Thanks

If you watch the video I posted upthread, you will get some good names to research.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5359776-we-have-always-been-here?reply=145259513&utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share&utm_source=copylink

sanluca · 13/07/2025 19:32

suggestionsplease1 · 13/07/2025 16:17

Quite simply, you are perfectly capable of further research yourself.

You could for eg. explore the fa'afafine further..

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17951883/

https://people.uleth.ca/~paul.vasey/PLV/Gender_Atypicality.html

Research here shows that cross gender identity does not inherently give rise to feelings of distress; rather the feelings of distress are a result of a condemnatory social environment. It is the culture and environment that an individual lives in that gives rise to the distress they experience, not their cross-identity per se.

Work in this area was relevant in changing the diagnosis of gender identity disorder in childhood (GIDC) (which formerly constituted a mental disorder as outlined by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 4th edition (DSM-IV-TR) to gender dysphoria in DSM-V to emphasize that it is the distress that is experienced that is the core aspect, rather than cross identity alone, which need not given rise to feelings of distress in a supportive culture.

Do you know what the most striking thing is about fa’afafine? They are always, no exception, male people performing femininity, including clothing, mannerisms and caring roles such as childcare often associated with female people.

They are gender roles, these men have not changed sex, they don’t have surgery, they don’t claim to be women, they are seen and see themselves as fa’afafine. They leave women alone.

Transactivists would do good to take a leaf out their book.

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