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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"We have always been here"

599 replies

DiamondThrone · 22/06/2025 14:34

Been noticing this a lot. It seems to be the new #TWAW #nodebate #bekind, after those didn't work.

I mean - lots of things have "always been here". Like women, for instance 😄

Just interested in new terms that arise, and how they are used to try and shut down comment.

OP posts:
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DeanElderberry · 24/06/2025 16:48

PachacutisBadAuntie · 24/06/2025 16:41

Trust me, there's as much misinterpretation and spurious bullshit in archaeology as in any other humanities discipline 😭

heretic!

mumda · 24/06/2025 16:52

I'm going to blame Blackadder. Clearly it's ultra-accurate.

The "Bob" character in Blackadder refers to Kate, a woman disguised as a boy named Bob, who appears in three episodes of the series Blackadder II: "Bells," "Major Star," and "Private Plane"

SerendipityJane · 24/06/2025 16:59

mumda · 24/06/2025 16:52

I'm going to blame Blackadder. Clearly it's ultra-accurate.

The "Bob" character in Blackadder refers to Kate, a woman disguised as a boy named Bob, who appears in three episodes of the series Blackadder II: "Bells," "Major Star," and "Private Plane"

Jesting aside, it's worth mentioning that for all the uproar over "Month Pythons Life of Brian", the one thing that was acknowledged was it's historical accuracy in as much as was known about in the 1970s.

And famously, it managed to articulate and encapsulate decades of trans debate into a 2 minute skit.

PachacutisBadAuntie · 24/06/2025 17:03

DeanElderberry · 24/06/2025 16:48

heretic!

🤣 despairing realist!

sashh · 24/06/2025 17:20

Catiette · 24/06/2025 16:32

Where's the talking donkey? I can only think of the census journey - does he complain Mary's too heavy? Can't be right - smacks more of toddlery nativity than biblical scripture... Sounds a bit makey-uppey, in fact!

No donkey in that bit.

Just a song centuries later. Oh and cards.

TheOtherRaven · 24/06/2025 17:24

SerendipityJane · 24/06/2025 15:30

We have written records going back to the iron age and earlier, and written records of oral memory going back a very long time before that.

Doesn't make them right 😀

So the total lack of any mention at all in any of the ancient texts and oral memory of any continent or civilisation, lack in Greek mythology, Viking mythology, etc, is all down to deliberate exclusion and eradication of the information?

We're here folks. The Ancient Greeks and the Ancient Egyptians are all transphobic and were involved in terfery.

SerendipityJane · 24/06/2025 17:27

TheOtherRaven · 24/06/2025 17:24

So the total lack of any mention at all in any of the ancient texts and oral memory of any continent or civilisation, lack in Greek mythology, Viking mythology, etc, is all down to deliberate exclusion and eradication of the information?

We're here folks. The Ancient Greeks and the Ancient Egyptians are all transphobic and were involved in terfery.

It's a really clever debating tactic to make your argument, and then retrofit it onto a comment. It makes you look educated, reasoned insightful and correct.

Luckily they've just switched on a 3,200 megapixel telescope in South America. With any luck it can find the point you missed.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/06/2025 17:54

TheOtherRaven · 24/06/2025 17:24

So the total lack of any mention at all in any of the ancient texts and oral memory of any continent or civilisation, lack in Greek mythology, Viking mythology, etc, is all down to deliberate exclusion and eradication of the information?

We're here folks. The Ancient Greeks and the Ancient Egyptians are all transphobic and were involved in terfery.

Almost as if 99% of all people who have ever lived have been TERFs known that humans can't change sex.

MarieDeGournay · 24/06/2025 18:02

sashh · 24/06/2025 17:20

No donkey in that bit.

Just a song centuries later. Oh and cards.

What song is that?.... oh right....thanks a bunch for that earworm, sashh..
And in June.😡
Grin

SerafinasGoose · 24/06/2025 18:51

Really? How do they know, if they weren't there? Where is the historical evidence (and I don't mean posthumously 'transing' Joan of Arc ....)

I know, and can tell you very clearly how I know, that men and women have always been around.

UnlockedXCX · 24/06/2025 20:24

springbirdss · 22/06/2025 17:40

I can't help but feel like you're all being a bit purposely obtuse here.

When trans people say 'we have always existed', it's to combat the argument that transgenderism is a new phenomena/craze.

There is evidence of individuals as far back as the Medieval period living as the opposite gender.

I think that's all they mean by it.

Could you provide examples of this? What evidence do you have?

JanesLittleGirl · 24/06/2025 21:01

The past is a foreign country. They do things differently there.

Please bear with me, I'm trying to track down a programme about 10th Century York and the ostentatiously effeminate behaviour of high value Viking warriors. (A bit like Royal Marines going out for the night in little black dresses.)

SerendipityJane · 24/06/2025 21:03

JanesLittleGirl · 24/06/2025 21:01

The past is a foreign country. They do things differently there.

Please bear with me, I'm trying to track down a programme about 10th Century York and the ostentatiously effeminate behaviour of high value Viking warriors. (A bit like Royal Marines going out for the night in little black dresses.)

Wasn't one of the grumbles Anglo Saxon men had about Vikings that they washed like little girly-men ?

TheOtherRaven · 24/06/2025 21:05

They thought the Normans were a bunch of weeds too with their cut hair and shaving.

DeanElderberry · 24/06/2025 21:20

So far the only medieval example we've had is one man who had sex with men. Which is nothing to do with gender.

Nothing in the ancient literature, nothing in medieval literature, nothing in early modern period literature.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 24/06/2025 21:30

Just putting this out there - just because humans have always done something doesn't make it right. I'm sure we can all think of plenty of things that have been done in all places and all times, may well even be a natural urge of humans, that we do not think are acceptable. Generally because of how they affect someone else.

In the interests of not over inflaming the debate, I'll make my examples Theft and Misogyny.

Some humans have always looked at what other humans have and thought "I want that. I deserve that. I'm going to have that." It doesn't make it right though.

And many human cultures have (some still do) considered women lower status, lower value, lower intelligence, lower morals, more like possessions than fully realised humans. And unlike theft that wasn't against the law. It WAS the law. That was the way their culture worked. Didn't make it right though.

Boiledbeetle · 24/06/2025 21:43

@FlirtsWithRhinos

Evening Flirts.

Don't mind me I'm just passing through.

"We have always been here"
"We have always been here"
suggestionsplease1 · 24/06/2025 21:55

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/06/2025 17:54

Almost as if 99% of all people who have ever lived have been TERFs known that humans can't change sex.

Just ChatGPT it for examples, it's not difficult 🤷‍♀️

ChatGPT

You said:
References to trans people in ancient texts
ChatGPT said:
References to transgender and gender-nonconforming people can be found across a wide range of ancient texts and cultures. While the terminology and concepts were different from modern understandings of gender identity, historical records show that many societies recognized—and often respected—individuals who lived outside the gender binary. Here's an overview of notable references from various cultures:

  1. Mesopotamia
Gala priests of Inanna (Sumer, ~2000 BCE):

The Gala were temple priests devoted to the goddess Inanna, many of whom were assigned male at birth but took on feminine names, clothing, and speech patterns.

Inanna’s mythology includes references to gender transformation. In one hymn, she turns men into women and vice versa.

  1. Ancient Egypt
While there's no direct evidence of a "transgender identity" in the modern sense, Hatshepsut, a female pharaoh (~1478 BCE), adopted male regalia and was portrayed with a beard, possibly reflecting a gender role shift in service to power and divinity.

Some scholars also point to gender-fluid representations of gods like Atum or Hapi, the latter often depicted with both male and female physical features.

  1. Ancient India
Hindu texts and epics:

The Mahabharata includes the story of Shikhandi, born female (as Shikhandini), who later lives as a man and plays a pivotal role in battle.

The deity Shiva appears as Ardhanarishvara, a composite of Shiva and his consort Parvati, half-male and half-female—symbolizing the unity of masculine and feminine.

Hijras, a traditional third gender group in South Asia, are mentioned in ancient Sanskrit and Tamil texts. They held significant ritual roles.

  1. Ancient Greece and Rome
The Tiresias myth tells of a man transformed into a woman for several years and then back again, giving him insights into both genders.

The cult of Cybele, a mother goddess, included Galli, priests who were assigned male at birth but often castrated themselves and wore women’s clothing, living as women or non-men.

Roman historians mention people who lived as a different gender, including Emperor Elagabalus (3rd century CE), who was said to have asked to be called a woman and even offered rewards to any physician who could perform gender-affirming surgery (though accounts may be biased or sensationalized).

  1. Indigenous and Non-Western Cultures
Although not "ancient texts" in the same way, many Indigenous oral traditions and pre-colonial records mention people with gender-diverse identities:

Two-Spirit people among many Native American cultures.

The fa'afafine in Samoa.

The bissu among the Bugis in Indonesia
, considered a meta-gender priestly class.

CassOle · 24/06/2025 22:06

I have seen enough ChatGPT hallucinations to know that it is not trustwothy. You also have to bear in mind what the LLM was trained on. Shit in = shit out.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/06/2025 22:08

suggestionsplease1 · 24/06/2025 21:55

Just ChatGPT it for examples, it's not difficult 🤷‍♀️

ChatGPT

You said:
References to trans people in ancient texts
ChatGPT said:
References to transgender and gender-nonconforming people can be found across a wide range of ancient texts and cultures. While the terminology and concepts were different from modern understandings of gender identity, historical records show that many societies recognized—and often respected—individuals who lived outside the gender binary. Here's an overview of notable references from various cultures:

  1. Mesopotamia
Gala priests of Inanna (Sumer, ~2000 BCE):

The Gala were temple priests devoted to the goddess Inanna, many of whom were assigned male at birth but took on feminine names, clothing, and speech patterns.

Inanna’s mythology includes references to gender transformation. In one hymn, she turns men into women and vice versa.

  1. Ancient Egypt
While there's no direct evidence of a "transgender identity" in the modern sense, Hatshepsut, a female pharaoh (~1478 BCE), adopted male regalia and was portrayed with a beard, possibly reflecting a gender role shift in service to power and divinity.

Some scholars also point to gender-fluid representations of gods like Atum or Hapi, the latter often depicted with both male and female physical features.

  1. Ancient India
Hindu texts and epics:

The Mahabharata includes the story of Shikhandi, born female (as Shikhandini), who later lives as a man and plays a pivotal role in battle.

The deity Shiva appears as Ardhanarishvara, a composite of Shiva and his consort Parvati, half-male and half-female—symbolizing the unity of masculine and feminine.

Hijras, a traditional third gender group in South Asia, are mentioned in ancient Sanskrit and Tamil texts. They held significant ritual roles.

  1. Ancient Greece and Rome
The Tiresias myth tells of a man transformed into a woman for several years and then back again, giving him insights into both genders.

The cult of Cybele, a mother goddess, included Galli, priests who were assigned male at birth but often castrated themselves and wore women’s clothing, living as women or non-men.

Roman historians mention people who lived as a different gender, including Emperor Elagabalus (3rd century CE), who was said to have asked to be called a woman and even offered rewards to any physician who could perform gender-affirming surgery (though accounts may be biased or sensationalized).

  1. Indigenous and Non-Western Cultures
Although not "ancient texts" in the same way, many Indigenous oral traditions and pre-colonial records mention people with gender-diverse identities:

Two-Spirit people among many Native American cultures.

The fa'afafine in Samoa.

The bissu among the Bugis in Indonesia
, considered a meta-gender priestly class.

Mate. You do realise that ChatGPT reflects the political agenda of the humans who programmed it, right?

Right?

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 24/06/2025 22:11

Annoyedone · 22/06/2025 19:46

How would they live as a man? Maybe their society subscribed to the belief that women and men could do whatever they liked and there were no gendered roles? I mean. Boudicca was buried with swords etc. Was she a man? Or a fierce female warrior?

Coming to this late but, perhaps the woman's husband / chief / patriarchal oppressor buried her with his sword as a way of 'protecting' his 'property' in the afterlife?

The point being that the sword can be left in a grave for a host of reasons

Some archeologists are choosing to apply modern thinking and ideologies to what they are digging up - this is fantasy not archeology

TheKeatingFive · 24/06/2025 22:12

Most of those sound extremely tenuous. Portrayal of gods / deities as evidence is ridiculous. There were gods with supernatural powers, gods who could fly, gods who were half man half beast. We don't use that as evidence that humans could do these things.

The other examples seem to be gender non conforming types and eunuchs. And of course the blessed fa'afafine 🫠

SionnachRuadh · 24/06/2025 22:23

We've got Elagabalus! ChatGPT comes through again!

Latin sources are very sketchy indeed, but what we kind of know about Elagabalus is that he was (a) a teenage boy who obviously wasn't up to governing, (b) a terrible emperor, which is how he got himself assassinated*, (c) Syrian, and (d) possibly homosexual, though that might be informed by Roman stereotypes about the effeminacy of Syrians.

On the basis of these slim pickings, trendy writers have created a whole mythology about the martyred trans Roman Emperor.

*Ancient history has an unfortunate tendency to launch me into Trumpspeak as I tell you that Elagabalus was a really terrible emperor, I mean a complete disaster, a clownshow worse than Chuck Schumer even, he shouldn't even be in the same history book as Marcus Aurelius, who was a tremendous emperor, maybe the best ever, I haven't looked into it but many people say so.

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 24/06/2025 22:38

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/06/2025 22:08

Mate. You do realise that ChatGPT reflects the political agenda of the humans who programmed it, right?

Right?

** See AI summary of events surrounding the recent NT / JKR / TRA / stitching over event

(Hint - the summary appears to be complete fantasy)

MarieDeGournay · 24/06/2025 23:12

suggestionsplease1
Just ChatGPT it for examples, it's not difficult 🤷‍♀️
Yes everybody knows it's not difficult; everybody also knows it's not reliable.

But just taking what you got out of it at face value, you do realise that - apart from the mythological bits - it refers to gender not sex?
Gender is a social construct, and has been constructed in different ways by different societies.

Some cultures e.g. Polynesian, have a 'third gender'. They are a third gender not a third sex. They are men, but they don't want to be like the cultural stereotypes of men, so they behave and dress unlike other men.
But everyone knows they are men. Nobody thinks they have changed their sex.
'Third gender' does not equal 'TWAW'.

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