"We have always been here"

[DiamondThrone]

Been noticing this a lot. It seems to be the new #TWAW #nodebate #bekind, after those didn't work.

I mean - lots of things have "always been here". Like women, for instance 😄

Just interested in new terms that arise, and how they are used to try and shut down comment.

Of course there is a conflict between the actual legal rights of women to single sex spaces and the desire of men to be in there with those women.

The wish of those men to be with a non consenting woman in a state of undress is not compatible with her right to a man-free space.

What about women's rights to be comfortable?

You seem to lack the self awareness to realise that in every one of these posts you return unerringly to how trans people feel and give zero consideration to how women feel.

And the wish of those men to refer to themselves as women is not compatible with female people's right to accurately describe and discuss themselves.

And the wish of a man to define himself as a woman and a lesbian and then expect lesbian women to view him as a potential sexual partner is not compatible with a woman's right to be homosexual.

The wish of a man to control a woman's perceptions of him is not compatible with a woman's right to her own perceptions.

Echoing this. Shouting it from the hills.

@suggestionsplease1 many men are no risk to women. Why is it so important to you that this group, and this group alone, be treated as if they actually are women, to all intents and purposes interchangeable with women, when outside their own heads they are no closer to being women than any other man is?

Why is a man's self image that he is a woman given more weight than her knowledge that he is not? Why is her sex and the undeniable real world physical and social consequences of it insignificant but his inner feelings, accssible and meaningful to no one but himself, of such importance that every female person in the world has to twist her own experiences, her own needs, her own knowledge of herself into a story that can also apply to male bodies?

@suggestionsplease1 , why do you hate women so much that you want this for us?

It makes me crack up how oblivious some posters are to how bad they make the trans "rights" "case" look.

It's like when there was that whole torrent from TRAs calling Henrietta Freeman awful things because she was a disabled woman who wanted single-sex intimate care.

The demands to deny this to disabled/injured/elderly women says a lot about the people who want to force them to have care from a male.

Your 'concept of trans people' is totally dependent on imagining that people in the past were as gender conformist and obedient as the young are today, wealthy enough to have something like modern fashion trends, leisured enough to be able to indulge them, and as driven to reinforce their conformity on others via social media.

The world was not like that, ever. Still isn't, in most places.

I remain convinced that suggestions is a deep state TERF double agent. Every post he makes does our job for us

Christ on a bike, I was feeling a wee bit sorry for you up until now, but what's with the rampant ageism?

Age and women's rights- the 2 remaining characteristics that the brave new world of diversity doesn't seem to embrace.

Therapy is available out there to deal with mummy issues.

I'm a young adult, so every trans person I know has always felt different.

Different how?

I took that as a reference to the universal feeling in late adolescence that one is individual, unique, 'different' from everyone else. Which is of course true.

The critical thing that gets left out is the realisation that everyone else are all individual, unique, 'different' too, and there are no 'real girls' or 'real boys'. We all just muddle along.

And grown ups realise that everyone is different to the other 8 billion people on the planet, we are all individuals but most of us are not special, and we all have to respect common rules if society is to function.

Individuals who believe that they are special and the rules do not apply to them are a pain in the arse.

Entire demographics believing this is a recipe for chaos.

Or that younger transwoman are different to the older ones? It could also be read like that. Which still leaves us with the question what happens when young transwoman age.

I'm a woman who has had non trans women follow me into toilets before and made me feel uncomfortable in gay clubs - and I personally have never felt uncomfortable with a transwomen in the toilets and quite happy they use them rather than the men's. My female friends all feel similar - we are women - why are you dismissing our feelings? It's behaviours that are problematic.

You and your mates don't get to override the women who aren't comfortable. This is one of those situations where one woman who doesn't consent gett to override all the others.

So you are happy with unisex toilets but distrust lesbians?

Of all the things that didn't happen, this didn't happen the most.

But lesbians with penises are OK it seems.

You and your friends are entitled to your feelings, but you cannot give consent on behalf of women who do not share them. Single-sex facilities exist to ensure women's safety, and have done so for well over a century.

We are dismissing your feelings because you don't get to consent to making women's spaces mixed sex spaces on behalf of other women.

If even one woman says no, the answer is no.

There are no arguments in favour of allowing male people into female only spaces.

It's very strange that the women who are keen to share intimate spaces with penis people also seem to have been traumatised by lesbians ogling them or chatting them up in toilets and changing rooms.

This doesn't correspond to any lesbian behaviour I'm familiar with.

It is interesting that @suggestionsplease1 could spot the difference between transwomen and women at a glance without (presumably) physical inspection. I'm not sure what the problem with the women was - maybe they were drunk or something.

Very good point. How does @suggestionsplease1 know they were not trans women?

Or they could have been transmen identifying as women amirite?

or 8 year old boys in the ladies lavs with their mums because you definitely can’t tell the difference between them and grown men

….ummm, which of the tropes have I missed?

@suggestions already took care of ‘but predatory lesbians’ and ‘women do it too’