Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"We have always been here"

599 replies

DiamondThrone · 22/06/2025 14:34

Been noticing this a lot. It seems to be the new #TWAW #nodebate #bekind, after those didn't work.

I mean - lots of things have "always been here". Like women, for instance 😄

Just interested in new terms that arise, and how they are used to try and shut down comment.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
45
StMarie4me · 24/06/2025 23:16

SmugglersHaunt · 22/06/2025 14:37

They haven’t though - or if they have it’s been in tiny numbers. It’s the same as them trying at appropriate the Stonewall riots etc. - it’s a load of bollocks

But they have. More so in other more accepting cultures. Third spirit, Polynesian third gender etc.

I met a trans woman in 1979.

Just because you believe it, doesn’t make it true.

Stop worrying about what’s in other people’s pants. It’s gross.

Boiledbeetle · 24/06/2025 23:21

Last time I checked Chat gpt seemed to think that I'm a male author of fiction who publishes poetry under a pseudonym and it attempted to attribute other people's poetry to me when asked for a poem by me so I take what it says with a pinch of salt

FeistyCat · 24/06/2025 23:24

suggestionsplease1 · 24/06/2025 21:55

Just ChatGPT it for examples, it's not difficult 🤷‍♀️

ChatGPT

You said:
References to trans people in ancient texts
ChatGPT said:
References to transgender and gender-nonconforming people can be found across a wide range of ancient texts and cultures. While the terminology and concepts were different from modern understandings of gender identity, historical records show that many societies recognized—and often respected—individuals who lived outside the gender binary. Here's an overview of notable references from various cultures:

  1. Mesopotamia
Gala priests of Inanna (Sumer, ~2000 BCE):

The Gala were temple priests devoted to the goddess Inanna, many of whom were assigned male at birth but took on feminine names, clothing, and speech patterns.

Inanna’s mythology includes references to gender transformation. In one hymn, she turns men into women and vice versa.

  1. Ancient Egypt
While there's no direct evidence of a "transgender identity" in the modern sense, Hatshepsut, a female pharaoh (~1478 BCE), adopted male regalia and was portrayed with a beard, possibly reflecting a gender role shift in service to power and divinity.

Some scholars also point to gender-fluid representations of gods like Atum or Hapi, the latter often depicted with both male and female physical features.

  1. Ancient India
Hindu texts and epics:

The Mahabharata includes the story of Shikhandi, born female (as Shikhandini), who later lives as a man and plays a pivotal role in battle.

The deity Shiva appears as Ardhanarishvara, a composite of Shiva and his consort Parvati, half-male and half-female—symbolizing the unity of masculine and feminine.

Hijras, a traditional third gender group in South Asia, are mentioned in ancient Sanskrit and Tamil texts. They held significant ritual roles.

  1. Ancient Greece and Rome
The Tiresias myth tells of a man transformed into a woman for several years and then back again, giving him insights into both genders.

The cult of Cybele, a mother goddess, included Galli, priests who were assigned male at birth but often castrated themselves and wore women’s clothing, living as women or non-men.

Roman historians mention people who lived as a different gender, including Emperor Elagabalus (3rd century CE), who was said to have asked to be called a woman and even offered rewards to any physician who could perform gender-affirming surgery (though accounts may be biased or sensationalized).

  1. Indigenous and Non-Western Cultures
Although not "ancient texts" in the same way, many Indigenous oral traditions and pre-colonial records mention people with gender-diverse identities:

Two-Spirit people among many Native American cultures.

The fa'afafine in Samoa.

The bissu among the Bugis in Indonesia
, considered a meta-gender priestly class.

"ChatGPT" Good lord.... 😂No wonder your posts are so full of misinformation. I wouldn't trust 'ChatGPT' to tell me what day it was.

It explains a lot though.

FeistyCat · 24/06/2025 23:25

StMarie4me · 24/06/2025 23:16

But they have. More so in other more accepting cultures. Third spirit, Polynesian third gender etc.

I met a trans woman in 1979.

Just because you believe it, doesn’t make it true.

Stop worrying about what’s in other people’s pants. It’s gross.

Said someone who clearly has never been raped.

MarieDeGournay · 24/06/2025 23:27

StMarie4me I met a trans woman in 1979.

The allegedly transwomen-led Stonewall Riots happened in 1969.
Before transgenderism was invented. Ten years before you met a transwoman.

Contemporaneous historical sources from 1969 are the best way of knowing the facts about the Stonewall Riots, not a retrospective trans re-writing and appropriation of lesbian and gay history.

SionnachRuadh · 24/06/2025 23:32

Also, I'll bet money that, in Cree or Ojibwe or whatever indigenous language it emerged in before it was appropriated by official white Canada, "two spirit" originated as a means to reclassify effeminate, probably homosexual men as outside the class of men within the tribe; but literally nobody thought they were women.

suggestionsplease1 · 24/06/2025 23:37

Well ChatGPT and equivalent are well on their way to making vast numbers in the workplace unemployed because of their power and effectiveness, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss.

It is very straightforward to take info that is generated and independently research further. Of course there are historical references to people in many different cultures who, in our present day concept and terminology, would be described as trans. To pretend otherwise is pretty silly.

SionnachRuadh · 24/06/2025 23:58

Of course there are historical references to people in many different cultures who, in our present day concept and terminology, would be described as trans. To pretend otherwise is pretty silly.

There are many people in history who have not conformed with sex stereotypes, who TRAs have been very keen to claim as being "transgender" in a modern sense which has only existed for a few decades.

This in itself is extremely silly, and I can't quite decide if it's more or less silly than when Peter Tatchell has one of his mystical moments and starts lecturing us about what Jesus really believed, which invariably turns out to be the same stuff Peter Tatchell believes.

Heggettypeg · 25/06/2025 00:47

It depends what you mean by "trans people":

People who mimic the opposite sex for purely practical rather than psychological reasons probably crop up pretty regularly in history. Since most societies are sexist, there are strong incentives for a woman, in particular, who can get away with this. They are deceiving other people but they don't believe it themselves. Not really trans, and shouldn't be claimed as such.

People who cross-dress for comfort and convenience, for fun or for a living, but neither they nor anyone else thinks they are really the sex they dress up as. Arguably not trans.

People who live in societies with rigidly defined gender roles who don't "make the grade" for the behaviour required of their birth sex, and are socially expected to adopt a status that reflects this. (Eg gay men Iran being made to have surgery). Does their society see them as having really joined the opposite sex or do they have a separate word and concept for such people?
Which of the known "third categories" that crop up in various societies are optional to join and which are enforced on "appropriate candidates" through social pressure? If there is such social pressure, are the people who join the third category really trans? How do they see themselves?

People who covet the attributes of the opposite sex and want to adopt them, for psychological reasons. Very likely such people exist as a minority throughout history. Some societies let them do it, some don't. But do they believe they are the opposite sex or do they just wish they were? What do their societies actually believe about them?

This, for once, really is a subject where the word " nuance" is appropriate. Certainly, without clear detailed evidence of how gender nonconforming individuals in different places and times thought about themselves, and how their societies thought about them, to assume that they prove a long history for the modern concept that trans women "are" women and trans men "are" men (to the point where sex is rendered meaningless), is just that: an assumption.

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 25/06/2025 01:00

Heggettypeg · 25/06/2025 00:47

It depends what you mean by "trans people":

People who mimic the opposite sex for purely practical rather than psychological reasons probably crop up pretty regularly in history. Since most societies are sexist, there are strong incentives for a woman, in particular, who can get away with this. They are deceiving other people but they don't believe it themselves. Not really trans, and shouldn't be claimed as such.

People who cross-dress for comfort and convenience, for fun or for a living, but neither they nor anyone else thinks they are really the sex they dress up as. Arguably not trans.

People who live in societies with rigidly defined gender roles who don't "make the grade" for the behaviour required of their birth sex, and are socially expected to adopt a status that reflects this. (Eg gay men Iran being made to have surgery). Does their society see them as having really joined the opposite sex or do they have a separate word and concept for such people?
Which of the known "third categories" that crop up in various societies are optional to join and which are enforced on "appropriate candidates" through social pressure? If there is such social pressure, are the people who join the third category really trans? How do they see themselves?

People who covet the attributes of the opposite sex and want to adopt them, for psychological reasons. Very likely such people exist as a minority throughout history. Some societies let them do it, some don't. But do they believe they are the opposite sex or do they just wish they were? What do their societies actually believe about them?

This, for once, really is a subject where the word " nuance" is appropriate. Certainly, without clear detailed evidence of how gender nonconforming individuals in different places and times thought about themselves, and how their societies thought about them, to assume that they prove a long history for the modern concept that trans women "are" women and trans men "are" men (to the point where sex is rendered meaningless), is just that: an assumption.

Edited

Or do you define trans as the current trend with its associated drug treatments, experimental surgery and need to co-opt children?

FlirtsWithRhinos · 25/06/2025 01:15

@suggestionsplease1

Sweetheart, "living outside the gender binary" is not the issue. I thought it was basically accepted that we all do that anyway. Or at least it was generally accepted until this whole "men feel like this, women feel like that" regressive "gender identity" bollocks started gaining traction.

I do think it's a shame you seem to be advocating for cultures that only allow people to define themselves within a set of defined gender boxes over just a general "you are the sex you are, but personality wise, clothes wise, interests wise, job wise you can be whoever you want" philosophy, but if it had to be the boxes, then I guess at least having more than two boxes is probably a good thing.

What these examples are not, however, are examples of men (in the old sense of male bodied) rocking up, self id-ing as women and being accepted as totally interchangeable with actual (female bodied, in the old sense of the word) women. And so their relevance to the modern Western Genderist belief in the "trans woman" who is utterly, 100%, no differences worth mentioning, the same as a female person is frankly fuck all.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 25/06/2025 01:21

Oh, and Gods changing sex is somehow proof that trans gender identies are more than just projections of the trans gender persons own prejudices about the two sexes? Come on! They are Gods! The whole fucking point of them is that they allow humans to explore mysteries that humans can't go beyond!

Unless you think that all the stories of gods turning into animals, breezes, lightning bolts, dying and resurrecting, and so on are proof that the same is true of humans ? 😂

Death, Animals, the Sex Binary. With humanity from the very start, embedded in our everyday yet ultimately unknowable, divisions we cannot cross. Of course they show up in our gods and mythologies, and of course they become metaphors for confused, distressed or lonely minds searching for meaning again and again in different cultures and times.

yint · 25/06/2025 02:29

suggestionsplease1 · 24/06/2025 21:55

Just ChatGPT it for examples, it's not difficult 🤷‍♀️

ChatGPT

You said:
References to trans people in ancient texts
ChatGPT said:
References to transgender and gender-nonconforming people can be found across a wide range of ancient texts and cultures. While the terminology and concepts were different from modern understandings of gender identity, historical records show that many societies recognized—and often respected—individuals who lived outside the gender binary. Here's an overview of notable references from various cultures:

  1. Mesopotamia
Gala priests of Inanna (Sumer, ~2000 BCE):

The Gala were temple priests devoted to the goddess Inanna, many of whom were assigned male at birth but took on feminine names, clothing, and speech patterns.

Inanna’s mythology includes references to gender transformation. In one hymn, she turns men into women and vice versa.

  1. Ancient Egypt
While there's no direct evidence of a "transgender identity" in the modern sense, Hatshepsut, a female pharaoh (~1478 BCE), adopted male regalia and was portrayed with a beard, possibly reflecting a gender role shift in service to power and divinity.

Some scholars also point to gender-fluid representations of gods like Atum or Hapi, the latter often depicted with both male and female physical features.

  1. Ancient India
Hindu texts and epics:

The Mahabharata includes the story of Shikhandi, born female (as Shikhandini), who later lives as a man and plays a pivotal role in battle.

The deity Shiva appears as Ardhanarishvara, a composite of Shiva and his consort Parvati, half-male and half-female—symbolizing the unity of masculine and feminine.

Hijras, a traditional third gender group in South Asia, are mentioned in ancient Sanskrit and Tamil texts. They held significant ritual roles.

  1. Ancient Greece and Rome
The Tiresias myth tells of a man transformed into a woman for several years and then back again, giving him insights into both genders.

The cult of Cybele, a mother goddess, included Galli, priests who were assigned male at birth but often castrated themselves and wore women’s clothing, living as women or non-men.

Roman historians mention people who lived as a different gender, including Emperor Elagabalus (3rd century CE), who was said to have asked to be called a woman and even offered rewards to any physician who could perform gender-affirming surgery (though accounts may be biased or sensationalized).

  1. Indigenous and Non-Western Cultures
Although not "ancient texts" in the same way, many Indigenous oral traditions and pre-colonial records mention people with gender-diverse identities:

Two-Spirit people among many Native American cultures.

The fa'afafine in Samoa.

The bissu among the Bugis in Indonesia
, considered a meta-gender priestly class.

Good idea. ChatGPT knows how dodgy this is:

"We have always been here"
FeistyCat · 25/06/2025 03:17

yint · 25/06/2025 02:29

Good idea. ChatGPT knows how dodgy this is:

Oooh burn! 😂 suggestionsplease is going to need some ice and/or burn cream for that. Ouch! For you, @suggestionsplease1 :

"We have always been here"
Annoyedone · 25/06/2025 05:46

suggestionsplease1 · 24/06/2025 23:37

Well ChatGPT and equivalent are well on their way to making vast numbers in the workplace unemployed because of their power and effectiveness, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss.

It is very straightforward to take info that is generated and independently research further. Of course there are historical references to people in many different cultures who, in our present day concept and terminology, would be described as trans. To pretend otherwise is pretty silly.

Are you admitting to claiming people were trans who did not identify as trans and as they’re dead can’t contradict you? Pretty gross.

DeanElderberry · 25/06/2025 07:07

Silly Chat GPT, all those

Gala priests of Inanna (Sumer, ~2000 BCE):
The Gala were temple priests devoted to the goddess Inanna, many of whom were assigned male at birth but took on feminine names, clothing, and speech patterns.

Were their culture's version of all the nuns called, for example, Sister Andrew, Mother Paul, Sister Joseph.

In general, thinking ritualised behavior of religious people maps onto secular society is likely to be wrong.

Likewise, thinking that societies' ways of dealing with homosexual people is anything to do with gender is wrong.

As is imagining that people undertaking work that their societies' sex- or class- stereotypes would have disbarred them from is about gender.

DeanElderberry · 25/06/2025 07:13

Hatshepsut, a female pharaoh (~1478 BCE), adopted male regalia and was portrayed with a beard, possibly reflecting a gender role shift in service to power and divinity.

Elizabeth an English queen, (1533-1603) used regalia previously used by male kings and said "I have the body of a weak, feeble woman; but I have the heart and stomach of a king, and of a King of England too." She didn't change gender.

SerendipityJane · 25/06/2025 09:28

CassOle · 24/06/2025 22:06

I have seen enough ChatGPT hallucinations to know that it is not trustwothy. You also have to bear in mind what the LLM was trained on. Shit in = shit out.

I'm already detecting a definite hint of manspeak in ChatGPT. Whether that's because speaking total bollocks with confidence is a male trait I will leave to the forum.

SerendipityJane · 25/06/2025 09:38

Well ChatGPT and equivalent are well on their way to making vast numbers in the workplace unemployed because of their power and effectiveness, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss.

All this means is the imitation of intelligence ChatGPT can perform is now able to hoodwink the 50% of the population who are below average intelligence. Not the highest bar.

Plenty of work cleaning up the mess "AI" leaves behind.

If you ask ChatGPT if you can trust it, it says no.

I hope that's the last of that. Come back to me if you want to be taunted a second time.

"We have always been here"
"We have always been here"
CassOle · 25/06/2025 10:18

AI doesn't think; it regurgitates.

suggestionsplease1 · 25/06/2025 10:36

😂 It makes me crack up how oblivious some posters are to how bad they make FWR look.

In any event there are widespread descriptions in many historical texts, oral traditions and in multiple cultures of people who would map pretty well on to our concepts of trans people today.

Of course there is different language, even the language today can not be precise and there are plenty of people who identify as trans who do not consider that they are changing biological sex. They are simply trying to live their lives as comfortably as they can in a world (well UK) that now appears to be trying to make them as uncomfortable as possible because of an obsessive preoccupation with a concept of sex as binary, which plenty of other countries are demonstrating, year after year, is not a fixation needed to create the best and happiest environments for women to live in.

https://www.context.news/socioeconomic-inclusion/denmarks-decade-of-self-id-cools-debate-on-trans-rights

"I wouldn't say that self-ID has been any threat to women's rights movement in Denmark - actually I would more say the opposite," said Helene Forsberg, director of the Women's Council Denmark, an umbrella NGO for more than 40 rights organisations, who noted it was not one of the group’s focus points.

"Many parts of society unfortunately try to make some kind of opposition between (trans rights and women's rights), which I don't believe there is."

Denmark's decade of self-ID cools debate on trans rights | Context by TRF

Denmark has avoided bitter polarisation over trans rights after becoming first European country to pass self-identification law

https://www.context.news/socioeconomic-inclusion/denmarks-decade-of-self-id-cools-debate-on-trans-rights

illinivich · 25/06/2025 10:38

😂 It makes me crack up how oblivious some posters are to how bad they make FWR look.

You are easily amused.

TheKeatingFive · 25/06/2025 10:42

suggestionsplease1 · 25/06/2025 10:36

😂 It makes me crack up how oblivious some posters are to how bad they make FWR look.

In any event there are widespread descriptions in many historical texts, oral traditions and in multiple cultures of people who would map pretty well on to our concepts of trans people today.

Of course there is different language, even the language today can not be precise and there are plenty of people who identify as trans who do not consider that they are changing biological sex. They are simply trying to live their lives as comfortably as they can in a world (well UK) that now appears to be trying to make them as uncomfortable as possible because of an obsessive preoccupation with a concept of sex as binary, which plenty of other countries are demonstrating, year after year, is not a fixation needed to create the best and happiest environments for women to live in.

https://www.context.news/socioeconomic-inclusion/denmarks-decade-of-self-id-cools-debate-on-trans-rights

"I wouldn't say that self-ID has been any threat to women's rights movement in Denmark - actually I would more say the opposite," said Helene Forsberg, director of the Women's Council Denmark, an umbrella NGO for more than 40 rights organisations, who noted it was not one of the group’s focus points.

"Many parts of society unfortunately try to make some kind of opposition between (trans rights and women's rights), which I don't believe there is."

God honestly, what nonsense.

There have always been gender non confirming people.

Grouping these people with distraught teenagers struggling with puberty and grown men with fetishes under the 'trans' label is a completely 21st century phenomenon.

illinivich · 25/06/2025 10:43

So we have to stand by an watch an adult men follow a girls into changing rooms because people in the past didnt understand DSD, because because some historian didnt believe women could be warriors and hunters and some politician say they can?

TheKeatingFive · 25/06/2025 10:44

illinivich · 25/06/2025 10:43

So we have to stand by an watch an adult men follow a girls into changing rooms because people in the past didnt understand DSD, because because some historian didnt believe women could be warriors and hunters and some politician say they can?

Edited

It's a hard no from me

Swipe left for the next trending thread