Reflections on Trans Arguments

[LimeFinch]

I've noticed a lot of general discourse about trans people that is based on misinformation, some of it dangerous, most of it born out of ignorance, so here's a handy reference to counter some of the claims I've seen.

Trans People are extremist! That's wot I done heard!
Transgender extremism doesn't exist - it's just a right-wing talking point used to discredit legitimate healthcare and equality efforts.
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/uk-un-view-trans-rights-much-needed-common-sense
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/11/hilary-cass-trans-children-review
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/02/gender-critical-beliefs-under-the-microscope

Puberty Blockers are Dangerous! My total lack of medical knowledge says so!
Puberty blockers are often lifesaving interventions. They're prescribed only after long assessments involving NHS gender clinics, parents, and specialists. They are fully reversible and shown to reduce the risk of suicide in young people with persistent gender dysphoria.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment
https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/tonic-psh-consultation-analysis-report.pdf
https://www.bmj.com/content/386/bmj.q1638.short
https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/resources/interim-service-specification-specialist-gender-dysphoria-services-consultation-response
https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/news-events/news/rcpch-responds-publication-final-report-cass-review

I Heard They're Changing Kids' Genitalia!
No people under 18 are getting genital surgery in the UK. NHS policy and private clinics alike restrict this to adults.
Indeed, more cisgender teens receive breast reduction surgery on the NHS than trans teens receive chest masculinisation surgery. The procedures follow similar approval processes, yet only one group is routinely scrutinised.
https://pure.johnshopkins.edu/en/publications/breast-surgery-in-adolescents-cisgender-breast-reduction-versus-t
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/10/revealed-thousands-of-trans-surgeries-carried-out-by-nhs/

They're in Women's Sports! I read it on teh internets!
There are only a small number of openly trans athletes competing at a professional level in the world, and none are dominating their fields.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/61346517
https://feeds.bbci.co.uk/sport/athletics/65051900

But, but, but, Women's Sports! No men!
Sex-segregated sports were historically introduced to exclude women, not because men were being beaten. The idea that it was about fairness is a myth.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/jun/13/how-the-fa-banned-womens-football-in-1921-and-tried-to-justify-it
https://research.birmingham.ac.uk/en/publications/health-gender-and-inequality-in-sport-a-historical-perspective

Ok, but Trans-women are Stronger. That ain't Fair!
There is no consistent biological advantage for trans women in elite sport. Oestrogen therapy significantly reduces muscle mass, strength and performance over time. Regulations often require minimum hormone levels and transition periods before competing.
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/59312313

Trans-Women are Men!!!!!! Any fule knowe that!
Identity is personal. “Man”, “woman”, “boy”, and “girl” are social roles - that’s gender. Not to be confused with biological sex - male and female. No trans woman claims to be biologically female, and no trans man claims to be biologically male. That’s another right-wing straw man argument.
https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/interim-update-practical-implications-uk-supreme-court-judgment
https://www.stonewall.org.uk/resources/lgbtq-hubs/trans-hub/the-truth-about-trans

Trans History is Different to Women's History
The idea that trans women have a “separate history” to cis women echoes the same tactics once used to exclude Black women and disabled women from womanhood.
https://blog.bham.ac.uk/socialsciencesbirmingham/2024/03/08/international-womens-day-trans-women-cannot-be-left-behind/
https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/trans-and-disability-justice-how-are-our-struggles-linked
Tall women, Black women, trans women - these are all adjectives describing different types of women. Every woman’s experience of womanhood is unique. If you exclude trans women from being women, what condition are you using to define womanhood? There isn’t one necessary condition. So trans women cannot be excluded from womanhood on this basis.

Trans-Women are Men in Dresses! I read it in the Daily Mail!
Crossdressing is not the same as being trans. Many cis men crossdress and are not trans.
https://fiorry.co/glossary/crossdresser/

But Anybody can be Trans in an Instant! I'm scared!
The risk of coming out as trans due to internalised homophobia and sexism is a real thing but is not as common as many would have you believe. That’s why the NHS has a structured care pathway with long waiting times and assessments. No one can simply walk in and access hormones or surgery. Many people are left in limbo for years unless they are in crisis or suicidal.
https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/referral-pathway-for-children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-community-and-hospital-paediatric-services/
https://transactual.org.uk/trans-lives-21/

Organisations are Convincing Kids They're Trans! Think of the Children!
No one is trying to “convince” people they’re trans. If you feel deep discomfort with the sex you were assigned at birth, you might be trans - but that’s for you to explore, not for anyone else to decide. The queer community is generally very good at spotting people who are dealing with internalised issues - no one wants anyone to transition unless it’s truly needed. This whole “kids being convinced” thing is another empty scare story.
https://transactual.org.uk/healthcare-professionals/inclusive-healthcare/
https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/referral-pathway-for-children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-community-and-hospital-paediatric-services/

Now, I'm very aware of the MN reputation for shutting down the threads - and removing the accounts - of anyone who doesn't go along with the anti-trans-hate-cult, but for the short time this thread remains up it's worth taking some time to actually look at the links, to think about the status of trans-women in the current society, and consider how this judgement - and the subsequent interpretation of the same by those who are a little hard of thinking - might reflect on us as self-assumed rational, reasonable human beings.

There has been a concerted effort for many years to stop women in general and women on Mumsnet in particular to stop talking about this subject. In general, no debate, no platforming, rape and death threats, threats against employment etc. On Mumsnet, ddos attacks, doxxing by Interns, pressure put on advertisers etc. On other platforms, groups will block or ban users who state gender critical views (the gender critical reddit sub was just removed entirely). This is one of the few places women have been able to talk about this stuff. And yet we still get the footstamping tantrums that women have managed to, despite all this, continued to have necessary conversations.

As for the usual 'there's other issues too!!!!', 1. who the fuck are you to dictate what women concentrate on and 2. the pushback to all this shit has actually enacted change - violent male sex offenders are no longer held in the female estate in Scotland. Helping vulnerable female prisoners is a good thing to anyone who isn't a complete tumshie

There's a reason the phrase women won't wheesht took such a hold. We won't wheesht, no matter how much you stamp your feet. We're used to dealing with toddler tantrums.

Please do tell us how you’ve come to the conclusion that “female-identifying trans folk […] are in general very much less of a threat to you than men and 'the system' n general” because that is not my experience and I’ve seen no evidence that would suggest this is true, men commit violence at higher rates than women, whatever their gender identity.

Stop it with the hurtful inconvenient arguments. It's not very welcoming nor is it respectful enough.

I think we should give due consideration to the obligatory opinion piece provided for us stating how wrong you are about offending patterns based on the sum total of fuck all or the murder of trans people in Brazil and how it's not nice to talk about it because there's so many nice transpeople.

Let's just do nice and only ever talk nicely and about nice things and never ever address anything we don't seem to be nice. Nice world sounds lovely.

Be nice. Nice nice nice. Nicey Nicey. Smashie and Nicey.

Sorry obviously I meant men. As the other posters apparently realised. Well noted!

Just fucking explain it then.

If you can't that does rather prove the point, no?

Tell you what, *TemporarilyChangedToday, *you would be bucking the trend of almost all transactivists, if you put your money where your mouth is and actually had a proper discussion.

Until then, we may not own the conversation, but we sure as hell own the argument.

Its not 'punching down' when the person doing the punching is a woman in prison who has been told she has to share her cell and showers with a man. And her sentence is increased for objecting.
Her situation is the exact and precise opposite of punching down. You describing her as the abuser is the textbook definition of DARVO.

Data please. Show me evidence that women are being attacked by trans men, particularly in toilets or other single sex spaces. I can't find any but it may exist. And then compare this with the number of women attacked by other men. Personally I trust the refuge workers who say that genuine trans women are never the problem but I'd love to see any data.

If you're genuinely curious about the intersection of sex, biology and gender roles you could also compare this with the number of women attacked by other women (very high in lesbian groups), and attacked by gay men (almost non existent).

And now we have the sealioning.

Nope not playing.

Female identifying trans folk ARE a threat to us. They are often highly violent, aggressive men who seem to have swung from extreme machoism into a provocative version of being a woman. Why would we just roll over and let these men in?

Dylan Mulvaney is not the prototype. Look instead at Isla Bryson. And all the middle aged men who suddenly grow breasts and dress as porn stars.

It is ridiculous to say we have common cause with these men. And it is like a beauty queen wishing for world peace to say we all benefit from reducing inequality etc etc - that's just a slogan on a placard and has no tangible impact on the vulnerable woman who is now being pushed aside by a confident man in a dress.

Katie Dolatowski was placed in a women's refuge.

www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/politics/council/campaigners-attack-leeds-council-response-after-convicted-paedophile-katie-dolatowksi-stayed-in-womens-refuge-4132802

It has been shared many times before on MN.

Given how often we are told to educate ourselves we did.

I'm not going to do the labour of searching for it here on demand, when you are quite capable of doing so yourself.

I don't do sealioning labour.

How about you provide evidence for female on female violence (and while you're at it, explain why transmen are an exception to that)?

I've never seen it argued here that trans men are a risk to other women.

Have you got transmen and transwomen mixed up again?

For the 99 billionth time, nobody (sane) is saying all transwomen are a risk to women, in the same way that not all men are.

But we keep all men out of women's spaces, because some are and we can't tell which ones. Same goes for trans women.

It's not difficult.

se. Show me evidence that women are being attacked by trans men, particularly in toilets or other single sex spaces.

the thing is it’s not just a fucking safety issue. I don’t want men in my single sex spaces because they are men!! I want my bloody privacy, I want my dignity, I want my own fucking stuff as woman because as a woman I’m allowed to say no to men!!!

how about my husband is allowed into women’s spaces? He’s kind and gentle and wouldn’t hurt anyone. Should he be allowed into women’s spaces?? If not why not? He’s a man just like all the lovely trans women we keep hearing about. He’s lovely too so why not?

Trans men?

Those are women who say they are men.

You don't even understand your own angle on this.

The message we are hearing loud and clear is "women aren't allowed to say no to men".

And you know what? We don't like it.

You've already mixed up terms on this thread so for the avoidance of doubt, when you say this -

'Data please. Show me evidence that women are being attacked by trans men, particularly in toilets or other single sex spaces.'

do you mean men identifying as women or women identifying as men?

TemporarilyChangedToday

of all the transwomen in prison, 60% are sex offenders.

The Department of Justice statistics.

How about you explain how a man demanding entry to a woman only space full of unconsenting women isn't a threat.

The entire nature of the demand is a threat.

It does make me laugh sometimes, that people talk about the discussion, the debate, the arguments.

None of these men never think that no is the only argument necessary.

And for any lurkers, this is a useful thread -

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread

Quite! Women’s stuff is for women not men LARPing as women . No should have been enough. Tjats how we can tell TW are men. If they were women no one would pay them any attention

"genuine trans women" you say. How transphobic to have a hierarchy of trans-ness. What do you have to do to be a genuine "trans woman"? What should we call these non-genuine "trans women"?

Exactly.

Women say no we don't want men in women's spaces

Then they are told they are not allowed to say that and to be nicer, more accepting, to prove why, that there is no legitimate justification for hold thing opinion and that it's just bigoted to say no. And then we aren't having a proper debate about it.

The answer is still no and always will be no from me because gender is a sexist concept, women are deserving of their privacy and dignity and sex is real and can not be changed. There isn't a debate to be had over these points.

Firstly there is plenty of evidence as others have supplied.

But more importantly, what would be the justification or reasoning for giving this one group of men access and not other groups of men? Why does this group of men think they should have special rights?

Didn't the USA Supreme Court say just days ago that there is no such thing as 'trans'? So if people are arguing for this thing they think exists, they really need to define their terms. As they all seem very confused about it all.