Page 35 | Reflections on Trans Arguments

FlirtsWithRhinos · 23/06/2025 11:46

Shedmistress · 23/06/2025 11:34

And the common people are so thick they can't have what they want, they must have what we think is best for them.

Show quote history

Hardly. It is the Populists, who hide the complexity of problems and sell flattering snake oil solutions rather than lay them out openly so the electorate can make informed decisions, that treat the "common people" (whoever they are - I have lived all over the country and done jobs from minimum wage to 6 figures and I've never met them) with disdain.

Someone who tells you the truth even though you don't like it respects you enough to think you deserve to know and to make decsions based on what is possible. Someone who tells you what you want to hear doesn't respect you, they just see you as a problem to be managed by telling you whatever you need to hear to be useful to them.

And yes, unfortunately politics has over the last twenty years gone more and more down the "we can't tell them what the real situation is because that opens a gap for the other side to claim we are wrong and it is easy to fix". I don't think it's a coincidence that social media is about twenty years old.

PrettyDamnCosmic · 23/06/2025 11:55

TheKeatingFive · 23/06/2025 11:10

Maintaining trust in experts was a lot easier to achieve when ...

A) The pool from which these 'experts' were recruited from was much smaller and barriers to entry were much high.

The vast majority of people didn't think they had anything to bring to the table on most topics. Now with so many more people going to university, this perception of exclusivity and authority has been shattered

B) Before social media gave everyone a voice, making it much harder to maintain clear 'top down' narratives. It also makes it more challenging to cover up mistakes/vested interests and quench dissenting views.

We aren't going back on any of these btw.

C) Social media gives people the impression that they have become expert just by watching some nutjob on YouTube. "Do your own research" only works if you possess critical thinking skills & know how to do actually do your own research.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 23/06/2025 13:12

StandFirm · 23/06/2025 07:16

I see a lot of references to previous threads and posters. I don't know what other posters have written - I'm not interested in slurs, blaming or guilt tripping. What is the best way to bar the way to the parties that are the most toxic? For me that's hands down Reform and the Tories (who fucked up the country for 14 years and purged any centrists from their ranks) As for being more focused on those who should do better or who should be allies... I do get the logic and the need to hold them to a higher standard but I'll stick with bashing those I consider to be the most direct threat overall.

it shouldn’t strain the imagination too much to understand that just because i think labour and the left are failing doesn’t mean i'm going to vote for reform or the tories
i mean it shouldn’t but apparently it does…pathetic
I have pointed out, abstaining also contributes to the victory of whoever gets in. It's merely stating a fact.

Thanks to the time I've spent recently engaging in this debate on this thread and others, I can see the depths of anger within GC feminism. I don't see where that can lead politically though. As a PP outlined, all parties recognise gender and only Reform seems to not give a fuck - except that they do, very much, and in the very restrictive and reactionary manner of women like pink and babies. Anyway, you all know that. If there was a GE tomorrow, I feel extremely pessimistic because the landscape is so polarised, the only winners can be the populists. I don't care about blame, just the result.
Have a good day all.

I see a lot of references to previous threads and posters. I don't know what other posters have written

With respect, given that all the historic posts are still available and MN has a search function (to be fair not a great one, but MN threads are also crawled by Google so that's another option), is that not a little arrogant?

If you had spent some time reading existing threads on the topic, you might have started with the insights you now have, and could have built on that rather than going through what might be a first round for you, but is just going over old ground for the people you want to engage with you.

I don't care about blame, just the result

If you think this is about blame you have misunderstood. The reason we are pushing at the Left rather than the Right is that we (perhaps foolishly) still believe the Left can be moved (because this authoriarian, sexist version of Genderism when interrogated properly is so unaligned with their other values), while the Right are just being who they are. It's about effectiveness. And the time to be effective is before the votes are cast, when the risk of losing our votes matters.

RufustheFactuaIReindeer · 23/06/2025 13:14

I have pointed out, abstaining also contributes to the victory of whoever gets in. It's merely stating a fact.

i don’t abstain either…merely stating a fact

and my post was aimed at all the posters who say this, not just you so I probably missed part of your original post as i wasn’t really aiming it at you iyswim

RufustheFactuaIReindeer · 23/06/2025 13:16

I take it back, i see i wasn’t responding to your post…

lifeturnsonadime · 23/06/2025 21:07

i've just caught up with this thread, I can't Adam and eve it!

Fancy a poster coming along to scold us for the fact that the left/ Labour don't support women's rights. It's almost as though we've seen this all before.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 23/06/2025 21:33

It occured to me that with chatGPT people don't even need to go through the board history to get a basic overview of a topic to date.

Let's try it.

You are assisting a UK politician with a short briefing paper. Can you summarise the main points of contention on the Mumsnet FWR board with respect to Left and Right wing parties in the UK, paying particular attention to the potential for far right parties to make political gains

ChatGPT said:
Certainly. Here's a summary of the main points of contention on the Mumsnet "Feminism: Sex & Gender" board (FWR) relating to left and right-wing UK political parties, with a particular focus on the political vacuum that far-right parties may exploit:
Briefing: Political Sentiments on Mumsnet FWR Board
Context:
The Feminism: Sex & Gender board on Mumsnet (often referred to as FWR) is a high-traffic forum where users discuss gender identity, sex-based rights, and related political matters. It has become a focal point for the "gender critical" movement, which challenges aspects of gender identity ideology.
1. Tensions with Left-Wing Parties
Labour Party:
Frequently criticised for adopting policies seen as prioritising gender identity over sex-based rights.
Accusations that Labour has dismissed or vilified women with gender-critical views (e.g. Rosie Duffield controversy).
Starmer's attempts to straddle both sides often seen as inadequate or insincere.
Alienation of traditional Labour voters who feel the party no longer supports women’s rights in a meaningful way.
Green Party & Liberal Democrats:
Often criticised for having strongly pro-trans platforms with little tolerance for dissenting views.
Perceived as dismissive or hostile toward gender-critical feminists.
Discussion frequently centres on deselections, no-platforming, and internal purges of gender-critical members.
2. Reluctant Sympathy or Tactical Use of Right-Wing Parties
Conservative Party:
Mixed views — some appreciation for ministers (e.g. Kemi Badenoch, Suella Braverman) who have spoken out about sex-based rights.
However, deep mistrust remains due to broader Conservative policies on austerity, migration, and women's services.
Users often express discomfort at finding themselves more aligned with Tory ministers on this single issue.
Reform UK / Far-Right Concerns:
Main concern: The gender debate is creating a vacuum on the left, which more populist or far-right parties could exploit.
Fears that gender-critical concerns could be co-opted by anti-feminist or anti-LGBTQ+ actors.
Some users warn that disenfranchised women may be drawn to right-wing populists if no mainstream party takes their views seriously.
Clear resistance among most posters to racism or reactionary politics, but also a sense of political homelessness.
3. Key Political Risks
Electoral Drift:
Disillusioned Labour voters may abstain, spoil ballots, or lend tactical support to Tories or independents.
Gender-critical independents (e.g. from the Women’s Rights Network or similar) could split votes in marginal constituencies.
Online Radicalisation:
Absence of representation in mainstream parties risks pushing discussions into unmoderated or extreme spaces.
Perception of Silencing:
Repeated references to cancel culture, deplatforming, and institutional capture (NHS, police, education) feed broader distrust in public institutions.
4. Policy Implications
Clear language on sex vs gender is key.
Women-focused policy platforms must be articulated credibly without pandering to extremes.
Mainstream parties risk long-term damage if they fail to engage constructively with this demographic.

TheKeatingFive · 23/06/2025 21:42

FlirtsWithRhinos · 23/06/2025 21:33

It occured to me that with chatGPT people don't even need to go through the board history to get a basic overview of a topic to date.

Let's try it.

You are assisting a UK politician with a short briefing paper. Can you summarise the main points of contention on the Mumsnet FWR board with respect to Left and Right wing parties in the UK, paying particular attention to the potential for far right parties to make political gains

ChatGPT said:
Certainly. Here's a summary of the main points of contention on the Mumsnet "Feminism: Sex & Gender" board (FWR) relating to left and right-wing UK political parties, with a particular focus on the political vacuum that far-right parties may exploit:
Briefing: Political Sentiments on Mumsnet FWR Board
Context:
The Feminism: Sex & Gender board on Mumsnet (often referred to as FWR) is a high-traffic forum where users discuss gender identity, sex-based rights, and related political matters. It has become a focal point for the "gender critical" movement, which challenges aspects of gender identity ideology.
1. Tensions with Left-Wing Parties
Labour Party:
Frequently criticised for adopting policies seen as prioritising gender identity over sex-based rights.
Accusations that Labour has dismissed or vilified women with gender-critical views (e.g. Rosie Duffield controversy).
Starmer's attempts to straddle both sides often seen as inadequate or insincere.
Alienation of traditional Labour voters who feel the party no longer supports women’s rights in a meaningful way.
Green Party & Liberal Democrats:
Often criticised for having strongly pro-trans platforms with little tolerance for dissenting views.
Perceived as dismissive or hostile toward gender-critical feminists.
Discussion frequently centres on deselections, no-platforming, and internal purges of gender-critical members.
2. Reluctant Sympathy or Tactical Use of Right-Wing Parties
Conservative Party:
Mixed views — some appreciation for ministers (e.g. Kemi Badenoch, Suella Braverman) who have spoken out about sex-based rights.
However, deep mistrust remains due to broader Conservative policies on austerity, migration, and women's services.
Users often express discomfort at finding themselves more aligned with Tory ministers on this single issue.
Reform UK / Far-Right Concerns:
Main concern: The gender debate is creating a vacuum on the left, which more populist or far-right parties could exploit.
Fears that gender-critical concerns could be co-opted by anti-feminist or anti-LGBTQ+ actors.
Some users warn that disenfranchised women may be drawn to right-wing populists if no mainstream party takes their views seriously.
Clear resistance among most posters to racism or reactionary politics, but also a sense of political homelessness.
3. Key Political Risks
Electoral Drift:
Disillusioned Labour voters may abstain, spoil ballots, or lend tactical support to Tories or independents.
Gender-critical independents (e.g. from the Women’s Rights Network or similar) could split votes in marginal constituencies.
Online Radicalisation:
Absence of representation in mainstream parties risks pushing discussions into unmoderated or extreme spaces.
Perception of Silencing:
Repeated references to cancel culture, deplatforming, and institutional capture (NHS, police, education) feed broader distrust in public institutions.
4. Policy Implications
Clear language on sex vs gender is key.
Women-focused policy platforms must be articulated credibly without pandering to extremes.
Mainstream parties risk long-term damage if they fail to engage constructively with this demographic.

That's very good in fairness 😂

EdithStourton · 23/06/2025 21:44

@FlirtsWithRhinos I think ChatGPT gave a pretty accurate summary.

Somewhere to point the next plopped who accuses us of being right wing evangelicals.

StandFirm · 24/06/2025 10:16

When I said I don't know what other posters have said: just because others have previously made similar points shouldn't imply that I should not post at all. If that's the case, why even keep the discussion board alive? Surely every point has already been made more than once in various ways? I was interested in the answer to the political question: if the mainstream progressive parties (lab/lib/greens) do not sufficiently address the issue, what do GC voters do? There are only three options: vote for the parties that let you down on this point but tick other boxes, vote for the opposition that may align on this point but don't tick the other boxes, or abstain and support the winner by default whoever it ends up being.
Simply bringing up this fact is not 'scolding', 'berating', 'blaming' or 'guilt-tripping'. That little GPT summary did not provide an answer either by the way, it just pointed out the same questions I've had. But all I've heard is 'don't tell us what to do', err... which I'm not. I'm pointing out the reality of the choices out there because I too am politically homeless for my own reasons and I was interested. No worries though, I'm not any more.

Thelnebriati · 24/06/2025 10:24

Abstaining from voting is not supporting the winner by default. Its a false argument and it smacks of blaming women for the position they have been placed in by people who are breaking the law; rather than blaming the law breakers for the consequences of their actions.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 24/06/2025 11:42

StandFirm · 24/06/2025 10:16

When I said I don't know what other posters have said: just because others have previously made similar points shouldn't imply that I should not post at all. If that's the case, why even keep the discussion board alive? Surely every point has already been made more than once in various ways? I was interested in the answer to the political question: if the mainstream progressive parties (lab/lib/greens) do not sufficiently address the issue, what do GC voters do? There are only three options: vote for the parties that let you down on this point but tick other boxes, vote for the opposition that may align on this point but don't tick the other boxes, or abstain and support the winner by default whoever it ends up being.
Simply bringing up this fact is not 'scolding', 'berating', 'blaming' or 'guilt-tripping'. That little GPT summary did not provide an answer either by the way, it just pointed out the same questions I've had. But all I've heard is 'don't tell us what to do', err... which I'm not. I'm pointing out the reality of the choices out there because I too am politically homeless for my own reasons and I was interested. No worries though, I'm not any more.

It wasn't supposed to provide an answer. I was interested in how easy it would be to effectively "catch up" years of discussion on a specific topic on a very busy board before jumping in.

Very easy, as it turns out.

just because others have previously made similar points shouldn't imply that I should not post at all. If that's the case, why even keep the discussion board alive? Surely every point has already been made more than once in various ways?

That's quite a selfish take. You want to ask something that's been discussed many times before, not because you know that and have a new take, but simply because it's me asking this time? And everyone else should be more than happy to repeat the things they've gone through many times before because this time, it's you?

The point of a discussion board is to discuss. If you are standing in the corner trying to pull the conversation back to where it was a while back don't be surprised if people don't engage or point you towards existing sources to catch up. We are also real people who will spend our time on what we think matters.

i was interested in the answer to the political question: if the mainstream progressive parties (lab/lib/greens) do not sufficiently address the issue, what do GC voters do?

And I think you have been giving several answers and also pointed to the archives of this board as a way to dig deeper. Personally I think the AI reply you dismissed is actually a pretty good summary of the various ways GC voters are thinking about this.

So if you really are interested in learning and understanding, I'm not sure why it's so critical that people have to interact with you directly to just say again all the info you've now been signposted to. If you really are interested in learning and understanding.

That is not to say never post obviously, but meet us where we are and be part of where the discussion goes next rather than asking us to hit rewind and pretend no one ever brought this up before.

Of course if it's more about the scolding for you I understand why it has to be direct and personal to feel satisfying, but I'm sure you can see that's not really giving much motivation to people to engage.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 24/06/2025 12:16

Because I'm feeling generous, I'll pop in a bit more info that chatGPT didn't pick up : one strategy is to take a leaf out of the TRAs playbook and focus on the smaller left parties like Greens and Libdems where there are active groups working to undo the gender activists' stronghold through party leadership elections and legal challenges to overreach. A GC accepting party on the Left would be important in the case of a hung parliament and also undo the complacent assumption that Labour can count on GC women's votes as the least worst option.

SternJoyousBee · 24/06/2025 13:53

Thelnebriati · 24/06/2025 10:24

Abstaining from voting is not supporting the winner by default. Its a false argument and it smacks of blaming women for the position they have been placed in by people who are breaking the law; rather than blaming the law breakers for the consequences of their actions.

Exactly. Not attending the polling booth may be seen as apathy or just running out of time to go and vote or not being able find your ID. Spoiling my vote states clearly I am actively indicating that none of the candidates on this piece of paper deserves my vote. My spoiled vote gets counted

@StandFirm could make the same point for someone who chooses to vote for an independent candidate over whoever they deem the “good guys” to be.

As for ignorance if the slurs thrown our way. These are not limited to MN scoldings. In fact he ones here are pretty tame. TW get airtime on the radio, tv and web based media to call us names. R4 WH gives them plenty of opportunities to name call. And social media is laden with TRAs screeching abuse.

To join in this thread with no knowledge of the online and media landscape seems a strange thing to do🤷‍♀️

greencartbluecart · 24/06/2025 13:55

Unless you think all parties are the same on all important issues, spoiling your vote could let someone lower down you acceptable list to get into power

ans whilst the spoilt votes are counted numerically there is no evidence they count in terms of making a difference

SternJoyousBee · 24/06/2025 14:07

greencartbluecart · 24/06/2025 13:55

Unless you think all parties are the same on all important issues, spoiling your vote could let someone lower down you acceptable list to get into power

ans whilst the spoilt votes are counted numerically there is no evidence they count in terms of making a difference

There are parties I would never vote for. The party I am most inclined towards has lost my support and they will nbe ed to change before they get back my vote. Until Jen I will continue to spoil my ballot.

The only way I will vote for a different party would be to strategically remove my sitting MP.

If people are worried that this will let in parties such as Reform then I suggest they start communicating their concerns to the Labour Party.

Manfreglory · 16/08/2025 21:48

LimeFinch · 18/06/2025 16:17

I've noticed a lot of general discourse about trans people that is based on misinformation, some of it dangerous, most of it born out of ignorance, so here's a handy reference to counter some of the claims I've seen.

Trans People are extremist! That's wot I done heard!
Transgender extremism doesn't exist - it's just a right-wing talking point used to discredit legitimate healthcare and equality efforts.
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/uk-un-view-trans-rights-much-needed-common-sense
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/11/hilary-cass-trans-children-review
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/02/gender-critical-beliefs-under-the-microscope

Puberty Blockers are Dangerous! My total lack of medical knowledge says so!
Puberty blockers are often lifesaving interventions. They're prescribed only after long assessments involving NHS gender clinics, parents, and specialists. They are fully reversible and shown to reduce the risk of suicide in young people with persistent gender dysphoria.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment
https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/tonic-psh-consultation-analysis-report.pdf
https://www.bmj.com/content/386/bmj.q1638.short
https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/resources/interim-service-specification-specialist-gender-dysphoria-services-consultation-response
https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/news-events/news/rcpch-responds-publication-final-report-cass-review

I Heard They're Changing Kids' Genitalia!
No people under 18 are getting genital surgery in the UK. NHS policy and private clinics alike restrict this to adults.
Indeed, more cisgender teens receive breast reduction surgery on the NHS than trans teens receive chest masculinisation surgery. The procedures follow similar approval processes, yet only one group is routinely scrutinised.
https://pure.johnshopkins.edu/en/publications/breast-surgery-in-adolescents-cisgender-breast-reduction-versus-t
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/10/revealed-thousands-of-trans-surgeries-carried-out-by-nhs/

They're in Women's Sports! I read it on teh internets!
There are only a small number of openly trans athletes competing at a professional level in the world, and none are dominating their fields.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/61346517
https://feeds.bbci.co.uk/sport/athletics/65051900

But, but, but, Women's Sports! No men!
Sex-segregated sports were historically introduced to exclude women, not because men were being beaten. The idea that it was about fairness is a myth.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/jun/13/how-the-fa-banned-womens-football-in-1921-and-tried-to-justify-it
https://research.birmingham.ac.uk/en/publications/health-gender-and-inequality-in-sport-a-historical-perspective

Ok, but Trans-women are Stronger. That ain't Fair!
There is no consistent biological advantage for trans women in elite sport. Oestrogen therapy significantly reduces muscle mass, strength and performance over time. Regulations often require minimum hormone levels and transition periods before competing.
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/59312313

Trans-Women are Men!!!!!! Any fule knowe that!
Identity is personal. “Man”, “woman”, “boy”, and “girl” are social roles - that’s gender. Not to be confused with biological sex - male and female. No trans woman claims to be biologically female, and no trans man claims to be biologically male. That’s another right-wing straw man argument.
https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/interim-update-practical-implications-uk-supreme-court-judgment
https://www.stonewall.org.uk/resources/lgbtq-hubs/trans-hub/the-truth-about-trans

Trans History is Different to Women's History
The idea that trans women have a “separate history” to cis women echoes the same tactics once used to exclude Black women and disabled women from womanhood.
https://blog.bham.ac.uk/socialsciencesbirmingham/2024/03/08/international-womens-day-trans-women-cannot-be-left-behind/
https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/trans-and-disability-justice-how-are-our-struggles-linked
Tall women, Black women, trans women - these are all adjectives describing different types of women. Every woman’s experience of womanhood is unique. If you exclude trans women from being women, what condition are you using to define womanhood? There isn’t one necessary condition. So trans women cannot be excluded from womanhood on this basis.

Trans-Women are Men in Dresses! I read it in the Daily Mail!
Crossdressing is not the same as being trans. Many cis men crossdress and are not trans.
https://fiorry.co/glossary/crossdresser/

But Anybody can be Trans in an Instant! I'm scared!
The risk of coming out as trans due to internalised homophobia and sexism is a real thing but is not as common as many would have you believe. That’s why the NHS has a structured care pathway with long waiting times and assessments. No one can simply walk in and access hormones or surgery. Many people are left in limbo for years unless they are in crisis or suicidal.
https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/referral-pathway-for-children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-community-and-hospital-paediatric-services/
https://transactual.org.uk/trans-lives-21/

Organisations are Convincing Kids They're Trans! Think of the Children!
No one is trying to “convince” people they’re trans. If you feel deep discomfort with the sex you were assigned at birth, you might be trans - but that’s for you to explore, not for anyone else to decide. The queer community is generally very good at spotting people who are dealing with internalised issues - no one wants anyone to transition unless it’s truly needed. This whole “kids being convinced” thing is another empty scare story.
https://transactual.org.uk/healthcare-professionals/inclusive-healthcare/
https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/referral-pathway-for-children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-community-and-hospital-paediatric-services/

Now, I'm very aware of the MN reputation for shutting down the threads - and removing the accounts - of anyone who doesn't go along with the anti-trans-hate-cult, but for the short time this thread remains up it's worth taking some time to actually look at the links, to think about the status of trans-women in the current society, and consider how this judgement - and the subsequent interpretation of the same by those who are a little hard of thinking - might reflect on us as self-assumed rational, reasonable human beings.

offering these well-reasoned arguments in this space is like throwing a sirloin steak into a zoo where all the animals are starving.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 16/08/2025 21:54