Reflections on Trans Arguments

[LimeFinch]

I've noticed a lot of general discourse about trans people that is based on misinformation, some of it dangerous, most of it born out of ignorance, so here's a handy reference to counter some of the claims I've seen.

Trans People are extremist! That's wot I done heard!
Transgender extremism doesn't exist - it's just a right-wing talking point used to discredit legitimate healthcare and equality efforts.
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/uk-un-view-trans-rights-much-needed-common-sense
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/11/hilary-cass-trans-children-review
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/02/gender-critical-beliefs-under-the-microscope

Puberty Blockers are Dangerous! My total lack of medical knowledge says so!
Puberty blockers are often lifesaving interventions. They're prescribed only after long assessments involving NHS gender clinics, parents, and specialists. They are fully reversible and shown to reduce the risk of suicide in young people with persistent gender dysphoria.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment
https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/tonic-psh-consultation-analysis-report.pdf
https://www.bmj.com/content/386/bmj.q1638.short
https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/resources/interim-service-specification-specialist-gender-dysphoria-services-consultation-response
https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/news-events/news/rcpch-responds-publication-final-report-cass-review

I Heard They're Changing Kids' Genitalia!
No people under 18 are getting genital surgery in the UK. NHS policy and private clinics alike restrict this to adults.
Indeed, more cisgender teens receive breast reduction surgery on the NHS than trans teens receive chest masculinisation surgery. The procedures follow similar approval processes, yet only one group is routinely scrutinised.
https://pure.johnshopkins.edu/en/publications/breast-surgery-in-adolescents-cisgender-breast-reduction-versus-t
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/10/revealed-thousands-of-trans-surgeries-carried-out-by-nhs/

They're in Women's Sports! I read it on teh internets!
There are only a small number of openly trans athletes competing at a professional level in the world, and none are dominating their fields.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/61346517
https://feeds.bbci.co.uk/sport/athletics/65051900

But, but, but, Women's Sports! No men!
Sex-segregated sports were historically introduced to exclude women, not because men were being beaten. The idea that it was about fairness is a myth.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/jun/13/how-the-fa-banned-womens-football-in-1921-and-tried-to-justify-it
https://research.birmingham.ac.uk/en/publications/health-gender-and-inequality-in-sport-a-historical-perspective

Ok, but Trans-women are Stronger. That ain't Fair!
There is no consistent biological advantage for trans women in elite sport. Oestrogen therapy significantly reduces muscle mass, strength and performance over time. Regulations often require minimum hormone levels and transition periods before competing.
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/59312313

Trans-Women are Men!!!!!! Any fule knowe that!
Identity is personal. “Man”, “woman”, “boy”, and “girl” are social roles - that’s gender. Not to be confused with biological sex - male and female. No trans woman claims to be biologically female, and no trans man claims to be biologically male. That’s another right-wing straw man argument.
https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/interim-update-practical-implications-uk-supreme-court-judgment
https://www.stonewall.org.uk/resources/lgbtq-hubs/trans-hub/the-truth-about-trans

Trans History is Different to Women's History
The idea that trans women have a “separate history” to cis women echoes the same tactics once used to exclude Black women and disabled women from womanhood.
https://blog.bham.ac.uk/socialsciencesbirmingham/2024/03/08/international-womens-day-trans-women-cannot-be-left-behind/
https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/trans-and-disability-justice-how-are-our-struggles-linked
Tall women, Black women, trans women - these are all adjectives describing different types of women. Every woman’s experience of womanhood is unique. If you exclude trans women from being women, what condition are you using to define womanhood? There isn’t one necessary condition. So trans women cannot be excluded from womanhood on this basis.

Trans-Women are Men in Dresses! I read it in the Daily Mail!
Crossdressing is not the same as being trans. Many cis men crossdress and are not trans.
https://fiorry.co/glossary/crossdresser/

But Anybody can be Trans in an Instant! I'm scared!
The risk of coming out as trans due to internalised homophobia and sexism is a real thing but is not as common as many would have you believe. That’s why the NHS has a structured care pathway with long waiting times and assessments. No one can simply walk in and access hormones or surgery. Many people are left in limbo for years unless they are in crisis or suicidal.
https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/referral-pathway-for-children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-community-and-hospital-paediatric-services/
https://transactual.org.uk/trans-lives-21/

Organisations are Convincing Kids They're Trans! Think of the Children!
No one is trying to “convince” people they’re trans. If you feel deep discomfort with the sex you were assigned at birth, you might be trans - but that’s for you to explore, not for anyone else to decide. The queer community is generally very good at spotting people who are dealing with internalised issues - no one wants anyone to transition unless it’s truly needed. This whole “kids being convinced” thing is another empty scare story.
https://transactual.org.uk/healthcare-professionals/inclusive-healthcare/
https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/referral-pathway-for-children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-community-and-hospital-paediatric-services/

Now, I'm very aware of the MN reputation for shutting down the threads - and removing the accounts - of anyone who doesn't go along with the anti-trans-hate-cult, but for the short time this thread remains up it's worth taking some time to actually look at the links, to think about the status of trans-women in the current society, and consider how this judgement - and the subsequent interpretation of the same by those who are a little hard of thinking - might reflect on us as self-assumed rational, reasonable human beings.

@LostInCatsFur

If it is necessary I will argue until my final moment that a man can't be a woman. I will highlight the harms that are done to women by this ideology. I will defend the need for single sex spaces and for them to be single sex, not single gender but reassured that don't mean I would attack your child or any trans person. I might if I felt safe doing so ask a Trans woman to leave a woman only space or reject a trans woman medic if I had ask for female care. But that's it. I was served by a trans woman in a cafe the other day the only things I said to them was my order and to ask for bill and a bit of chit chat about the weather. I didn't scream when I saw them, or refuse to eat food they had touched or demand another server. I didn't scream you are a man at them or whisper it. I didn't use the name (or if there were any pronouns) that were on their badge because A) I was talking directly to them, B) I couldn't read the badge because they were at the wrong angle for my varifocals to enable me to see what it said. I have a trans college - they have no idea I'm Gender Critical because I have never raised the issue at work. I am not a danger to your child, you and she have have reason to fear me.

I can't be more 'oh poor little darlings, what pronouns do you use?'

I just can't. Because I see it doing harm. It's cultlike and it's the most vulnerable who gets the shitty end of the stick from it - that's trans identifying children, vulnerable adults and women. Note IT INCLUDES concerns about those who identify as trans...

Indeed. I'm one of those 'annoying' Autistic people who sees things in black and white. I deal only in facts. I can't do 'pretend'

Like you, I see harm. It's been so alarming to watch this ideology unfold over the past 5 to 10 years. I want no part in it. I just want safety for myself and for my 13 year old daughter.

This is it in a nutshell...

Obviously any sort of actual harassment or abuse of trans folk is unacceptable.

The trouble though, is that TRAs often see something as simple as asking a biological man to leave a single sex changing room as harassment and extremely distressing.

As I've seen in other places with the SC and how it's not really about loos etc but how "we" want to eliminate them.

I am not sure to what extent this is a deliberate strategy, DARVO, misplaced distress at being reminded what sex they really are or they do view this as a "hate crime".

If the latter, it makes life much more difficult than it needs to be as it simply isn't.

You lost me the moment I read "right wing" in your post.

How many effing times do we have to state : this is NOT a right wing versus left wing matter!?!

There are socialists who are GC and socialists who are trans activists!
There are capitalists who are GC and capitalists who are trans activists!

The conflict here is between women who want to retain women's rights, and the TRA who demand they be taken away to appease a minuscule number of men.

If you're sexist enough to think that female or male is a costume or persona, then you will get challenged on that viewpoint by people who want to fight sexism and biological essentialism.

If you think that being a man or woman is about what type of body you have, you will also get challenged on that, by trans activists - unless of course you pledge to change your body in order to change ot become your gender (then of course that is what makes that belief somehow acceptable).

So either way you will meet people who disagree with you. Therefore it's a really helpful idea to fully interrogate your own beliefs and what they're based on, to learn and become confident in your viewpoint.

Pretending that everyone is duty-bound to agree with whatever you say does no-one any favours.

The OP lost me with their cutesey faux- misspellings.

Presumably intended to convey that 'everyone who doesn't agree with me is an idiot'.

Unfortunately, people here deal in actual arguments, not just name calling.

Trot off back to reddit.

This reads like a parody, with zero insight. And beautifully summarises why many folks feel there is no genuine wish for exploring views beyond a narrow TERF/SC view. Go outside of MN and you'll find curiosity and discussion as to why such a bitter TERF view has taken hold on MN and in the UK so specifically. Some of you on here may not have considered its anti-feminist agenda (get distracted by punching down at trans folk, rather than working together to actually address systemic problems for women (and female-identifying trans folk, who are in general very much less of a threat to you than men and 'the system' n general...).

As per "explanation" above, anyone expressing other views is considered 'bad faith' or an interloper. 'This board gets ..', 'we get', other people are in bad faith, 'we' are attacked.

You don't own the conversation. You just think you do and that makes us all worse off in the auk

Go outside of your echo chamber and you'll find that almost no one believes trans women are women.

Does anyone REALLY believe that TWAW? I thought it was just a phrase people repeated to show they're in the 'be kind' tribe.

Wait… do transwomen have to be men? Could I not, in my current pregnant state, claim to be a transwoman? Just because? If transwomen are women, and I’m a woman, does that mean I can be a transwoman if I wanted to be one?

Just to be clear for everyone. Women who say no to men trying to infiltrate their spaces are not 'punching down'.

HTH

I think some women tried that already and the guys were not happy about it 🫠

If you mean no-one believes that trans women have different DNA to other women, then yes, that is correct. No-one does.

To think otherwise would be ridiculous. To think others think otherwise would be ridiculous

Right, so why are they trying to claim additional rights / privileges for 'transwomen' then?

They're not like women any other significant way either. They're only like women in the same ways that all other men are like women. Even after hormones and surgery. The rest is just wishful thinking and other people politely pretending not to notice the difference. Sorry!

You don't own the conversation. You just think you do and that makes us all worse off in the auk

No, users here don't own the conversation. But neither do you. You have plenty of places to discuss on your own terms with your own social conventions.

Here we have our own social conventions which others don't get to dictate. This is the only place we have that.

One of those is actually about answering the difficult questions over safeguarding and addressing the failure to respect the privacy and dignity of women which is ignored everywhere else.

One of those is being able to provide a good quality argument about whether transitioning a) works b) is harmful to those transitioning

There HAS been an influx lately of people here who have an opening post of 'you all are hateful bigots etc etc' together with atrociously sourced links which are about as reliable as a chocolate teapot. If you start off attacking people on their own patch, you aren't going to get the red carpet laid out. Indeed you successfully manage to damage goodwill and undermine your own arguments from the start. That's done all by themselves without any aid or assistance from us. Imagine trying to fight a battle where your first action is to deliberately shoot yourself in the foot. That is bad faith and we don't have time for it.

If you genuinely want to debate, do so. Understand that the level of debate is high. You will need to have good counter arguments to our concerns otherwise those concerns will continue to be concerns. You can not ignore these problems. They aren't going away and we won't let them drop. There seems to be this weird idea that we should just play nice and give other points of view a gentle touch and an easy ride. Why? It's hugely important issues that have massive ramifications!

Ultimately there isn't a compromise to be made over whether sex is real or not. If you want legal protection as a transperson you need to recognise sex as otherwise you are invisible in law and can't claim a protected characteristic because you are indefinable. If you want medical treatment ultimately your sex matters if you want good quality care that won't harm you. If you want biological children, sex remains fundamental. This does not change just because you want to try and replace sex with gender.

So yeah, tough shit. You can call it a parody with zero insight all you damn well like. It's how it is, and you need to address those points and not expect a free pass cos I treat all people equally on all subjects across MN. All things that affect society require due diligence and accountability - not just being nice. Trans issues are not an exception. There seems to be this weird argument that for this subject, the normal level of scrutiny, debate and knowledge that exists throughout the site in terms of political engagement and participation should just disappear. No. That's not how it works.

Wah wah wah it's not fair, I don't like these social etiquette rules here because it's hampering my domination of the subject in the wider real world public sphere, is not a valid argument. Go and up the level of your debating skills if it bothers you so much.

FWIW I have argued against the grain on MN many, many times. Ultimately I believe that if your argument is good enough it will win through even if there's a lot more people who disagree to begin with. And I've seen minds changed because of it.

In previous generations sterilisation was a way of handling unwanted women - the young girls pregnant outside of marriage, those of the wrong racial background, disbaled

yet here we are accused of “punching down” because we don’t want young girls to be sterilised as a side effect of their transgender medicatiksn

in previous generations we fight against FGM - yet here we are “punching down “ when we say chikdren should not have surgery on their genitals

this is so two faced

Go outside of MN and you'll find curiosity and discussion as to why such a bitter TERF view has taken hold on MN and in the UK so specifically

nope

never heard anyone ever say this…generally in any conversation I have had on this subject MN is not mentioned at all

Had a transman, a non binary man and two gay men round a few weeks ago, they mentioned jkr…but not mumsnet

I've actually heard the opposite tbh.

No, I mean in general most people are happy to pretend they are women except in situations where we actually distinguish between women and men, in which case suddenly they are not like other women because reasons.

And that's precisely why JKR is hated. She makes necessary conversations become mainstream. MN is regarded as a bunch of Cassandras who can be ignored 95% if the time. And that's on all subjects that affect women significantly in a different way to men not just trans related issues.

What do you mean "no-one believes that trans women have different DNA to other women"? Unless they are utterly deluded absolutely nobody believes that "trans women" have the same DNA as real women. They are men. Being male is the one essential requirement to be a "trans women". Males possess a Y chromosome while females do not.