Reflections on Trans Arguments

[LimeFinch]

I've noticed a lot of general discourse about trans people that is based on misinformation, some of it dangerous, most of it born out of ignorance, so here's a handy reference to counter some of the claims I've seen.

Trans People are extremist! That's wot I done heard!
Transgender extremism doesn't exist - it's just a right-wing talking point used to discredit legitimate healthcare and equality efforts.
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/uk-un-view-trans-rights-much-needed-common-sense
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/11/hilary-cass-trans-children-review
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/02/gender-critical-beliefs-under-the-microscope

Puberty Blockers are Dangerous! My total lack of medical knowledge says so!
Puberty blockers are often lifesaving interventions. They're prescribed only after long assessments involving NHS gender clinics, parents, and specialists. They are fully reversible and shown to reduce the risk of suicide in young people with persistent gender dysphoria.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment
https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/tonic-psh-consultation-analysis-report.pdf
https://www.bmj.com/content/386/bmj.q1638.short
https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/resources/interim-service-specification-specialist-gender-dysphoria-services-consultation-response
https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/news-events/news/rcpch-responds-publication-final-report-cass-review

I Heard They're Changing Kids' Genitalia!
No people under 18 are getting genital surgery in the UK. NHS policy and private clinics alike restrict this to adults.
Indeed, more cisgender teens receive breast reduction surgery on the NHS than trans teens receive chest masculinisation surgery. The procedures follow similar approval processes, yet only one group is routinely scrutinised.
https://pure.johnshopkins.edu/en/publications/breast-surgery-in-adolescents-cisgender-breast-reduction-versus-t
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/10/revealed-thousands-of-trans-surgeries-carried-out-by-nhs/

They're in Women's Sports! I read it on teh internets!
There are only a small number of openly trans athletes competing at a professional level in the world, and none are dominating their fields.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/61346517
https://feeds.bbci.co.uk/sport/athletics/65051900

But, but, but, Women's Sports! No men!
Sex-segregated sports were historically introduced to exclude women, not because men were being beaten. The idea that it was about fairness is a myth.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/jun/13/how-the-fa-banned-womens-football-in-1921-and-tried-to-justify-it
https://research.birmingham.ac.uk/en/publications/health-gender-and-inequality-in-sport-a-historical-perspective

Ok, but Trans-women are Stronger. That ain't Fair!
There is no consistent biological advantage for trans women in elite sport. Oestrogen therapy significantly reduces muscle mass, strength and performance over time. Regulations often require minimum hormone levels and transition periods before competing.
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/59312313

Trans-Women are Men!!!!!! Any fule knowe that!
Identity is personal. “Man”, “woman”, “boy”, and “girl” are social roles - that’s gender. Not to be confused with biological sex - male and female. No trans woman claims to be biologically female, and no trans man claims to be biologically male. That’s another right-wing straw man argument.
https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/interim-update-practical-implications-uk-supreme-court-judgment
https://www.stonewall.org.uk/resources/lgbtq-hubs/trans-hub/the-truth-about-trans

Trans History is Different to Women's History
The idea that trans women have a “separate history” to cis women echoes the same tactics once used to exclude Black women and disabled women from womanhood.
https://blog.bham.ac.uk/socialsciencesbirmingham/2024/03/08/international-womens-day-trans-women-cannot-be-left-behind/
https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/trans-and-disability-justice-how-are-our-struggles-linked
Tall women, Black women, trans women - these are all adjectives describing different types of women. Every woman’s experience of womanhood is unique. If you exclude trans women from being women, what condition are you using to define womanhood? There isn’t one necessary condition. So trans women cannot be excluded from womanhood on this basis.

Trans-Women are Men in Dresses! I read it in the Daily Mail!
Crossdressing is not the same as being trans. Many cis men crossdress and are not trans.
https://fiorry.co/glossary/crossdresser/

But Anybody can be Trans in an Instant! I'm scared!
The risk of coming out as trans due to internalised homophobia and sexism is a real thing but is not as common as many would have you believe. That’s why the NHS has a structured care pathway with long waiting times and assessments. No one can simply walk in and access hormones or surgery. Many people are left in limbo for years unless they are in crisis or suicidal.
https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/referral-pathway-for-children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-community-and-hospital-paediatric-services/
https://transactual.org.uk/trans-lives-21/

Organisations are Convincing Kids They're Trans! Think of the Children!
No one is trying to “convince” people they’re trans. If you feel deep discomfort with the sex you were assigned at birth, you might be trans - but that’s for you to explore, not for anyone else to decide. The queer community is generally very good at spotting people who are dealing with internalised issues - no one wants anyone to transition unless it’s truly needed. This whole “kids being convinced” thing is another empty scare story.
https://transactual.org.uk/healthcare-professionals/inclusive-healthcare/
https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/referral-pathway-for-children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-community-and-hospital-paediatric-services/

Now, I'm very aware of the MN reputation for shutting down the threads - and removing the accounts - of anyone who doesn't go along with the anti-trans-hate-cult, but for the short time this thread remains up it's worth taking some time to actually look at the links, to think about the status of trans-women in the current society, and consider how this judgement - and the subsequent interpretation of the same by those who are a little hard of thinking - might reflect on us as self-assumed rational, reasonable human beings.

Are you quite alright? No one is saying that transmen are a risk to other women given that they are female.

There is no evidence that transwomen offend at all lower rate than other men and certainly no evidence that puts them at the same rate of offending as females.

And who are the “genuine transwomen”. Are you attempting to gatekeep the trans experience? Anyone who says they are trans is trans. I didn’t make the rules.

I would also love to know what the difference is between genuine and non genuine transwomen.

And how we're supposed to tell the difference.

What do you have to do to be a genuine "trans woman"?

not get caught offending

💯

There are lots of great reasons but just as important as all of those reasons is this one :

we say “no” because we want to

No one can. It only becomes clear that a transwoman isn’t genuine when he gets sentenced….and then some folk stil are not 100% certain.

There has been several times before actually when female people
have identified as transwomen. It causes an absolute meltdown.

It does highlight the issue with the mantra though.

Is it if they’ve got a friend who will vouch that they’re ‘lovely’? Because I would’ve said that about my transwoman friend before he chased me around his flat with a kitchen knife and I had to call the police.

Ah yes, as with Nicola Sturgeon and the concept of rapist gender.

Exactly. “Trans women” are simply men. You are the one making the extraordinary claim. The burden of proof is on you @TemporarilyChangedToday

We don't need to record the statistics for the number of attacks from male people in female toilets though to show that the original risk basis of excluding ALL male people from female single sex spaces is still valid. There is no data that supports exempting a sub group of male people from the exclusion from female single sex spaces, quite the opposite.

There are no statistics that show female people with transgender identities are a greater risk than other female people within the UK population. Any exclusion to female single sex spaces of female people with transgender identities is not based on their risk of attacking other female people, if I understand correctly.

Also, for that sub group of male people to be removed from the over all group of male people for assessing risk profile, the comparator for the group needs to be whether they commit sex and violent crimes at the same or lower rates than the general female population in the UK. It is actually irrelevant if they were committing sex and violent crimes at a rate lower than the male population of the UK, that is not the correct comparator for inclusion in female single sex spaces.

Plus it needs to be noted that the exclusion of male people from female single sex spaces is not only for safety aspects. It is also for privacy from all male people over the age of about 8 years old. This privacy is also very important to consider.

For anyone who wants to know what should be considered for evaluating risk of this sub group of males to show that they have a risk level not less than any other male in the UK of committing sex crime, have a read through the statistics for males who have transgender identities who commit sex crimes in the UK

Firstly, This was a question answered earlier this year:

https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2024-12-16/20298.

Question from Rebecca Paul (MP Reigate): To ask the Secretary of State for Justice, with reference to the HMPPS Offender Equalities Annual Report 2023-2024, published on 28 November 2024, how many of the 50 transgender prisoners who reported their legal gender as female were convicted of a sexual offence.

Answer from Sir Richard Dakin (MP Scunthorpe): 23 December 2024
Of the 245 transgender prisoners who reported their legal gender as male (i.e. those who now identify as women, non-binary or gender-fluid) on 31 March 2024, 151 were convicted of a sexual offence. This includes both contact and non-contact sexual offences. Offence data was not available for 1 individual.

Of the 50 transgender prisoners who reported their legal gender as female on 31 March 2024, the number convicted of a sexual offence is five or fewer. We do not provide exact data for such small sample sizes as it risks identification of individuals. This approach is in line with our standards on data disclosure.

To put this into perspective with what we already knew from FOI information.:

Here is data from the MoJ

Here is an FOI request from 30 April 2024

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/populationoftransgenderoffend/response/2641337/attach/html/7/FOI%20240322022%20Annex%20A.xlsx.html

Up to the 31st March 2023, the MoJ stated that of the 88 male transgender prisoners with one or more sexual offences.

The breakdown was

48 rapes,
0 attempted rapes,
10 Sexual assault or attempted sexual assault,
13 causing or inciting a child under 16 to engage in sexual activity,
0 indecent assault or gross indecency
6 sexual activity with a child under 16
0 other

77 listed here.... BUT there is a total of 88 in the total so there is 11 crimes not noted.

Possessing or making indecent photographs or pseudo photographs of child has not been recorded in this FOI.

However, there is are further discrepancies in the data of the following when you look at TOTAL NUMBER OF TRANSGENDER PRISONERS SENTENCED FOR A PRINCIPAL SEXUAL OFFENCE.

1 causing or inciting a child under 16 to engage in sexual activity
3 rapes
2 sexual activity with a child under 16
3 Sexual assault or attempted sexual assault,
This equals 9 additional... however the sum for TOTAL NUMBER OF TRANSGENDER PRISONERS SENTENCED FOR A PRINCIPAL SEXUAL OFFENCE is 99.

Therefore 2 more sex crimes have been hidden from this data.

There were 203 males who were declared as transgender in the prison at the time.

There were 24 NB who were not segregated into male and female. What is key here, is that THIS IS NON-GRC HOLDERS. And we all know that males holding GRCs have increased and they are excluded from this data. NO female people with transgender identities were sentenced to a principal sexual offence. There were 41 female people with transgender identities in UK prisons at that time.

As a comparison, I have stats that say as of April 2019 that the general male MoJ data for male sex offenders was just 16.8% of the male prison population.
And there were 3.3% of female people in UK prisons were sex offenders.

I will leave you to do your own sums. But... even using the figure of 88/203 is 43.3%. (And that doesn't include making or possessing indecent photographs of a child remember.)

By the way this exercise was done in 2021. And I checked this data myself from the data source and it was correct at the time. So, it will give some back ground to the above.

The ones that say that in the March/April 2021 data collection period, the MoJ stated that of the 97 transgender prisoners with one or more sexual offences.
The breakdown was

40 rapes,
8 attempted rapes,
31 possessing or making indecent photographs or pseudo photographs of child,
32 Sexual assault or attempted sexual assault,
20 causing or inciting a child under 16 to engage in sexual activity,
10 indecent assault or gross indecency
9 sexual activity with a child under 16
27 other

The 97 sex offender transgender prisons collected 177 sentences between them.

And that according to that FOI 197 prisoners are transgender.

TLDR: This is why NO SUB GROUP OF MALE PEOPLE SHOULD BE EXEMPT FROM RISK ASSESSMENT. This group of male people still retain the same male pattern of committing sex and violent crime, at ANY STAGE OF TRANSITION.

And no one thinks that female people with transgender identities pose a greater risk to female people than the general female UK population. ie. people don't believe that transmen are a risk to other female people.

I must say I’m looking forward to finally finding out why I’m wrong. Because I’m certain there’s a really good, coherent argument as to why I should consider a self selecting group of men women about to be posted.

Exactly.

We don't want to rape you really isn't the gotcha these people think it is.

Well, I don't want you in here.

Now what?

Because there's absolutely no answer to that that doesn't constitute a threat!

Remember those two women who were on Only Fans who put bananas down their pants and pretended to be men who say they are women?

The drama! They sold out of smelling salts that day I believe.

I'm here, with pencil, waiting to take notes! I may get RSI doing this all day...

The reactions were priceless

Talk of appropriation. How these women couldn’t possibly know what it was like to be a transwoman. All said with zero self awareness.

I think the most hilariously lack of self aware reaction was from transwomen who said 'my gender is not your costume'.

What, so they can pretend to be us but we can't pretend to be them?

So given that you obviously know biologically female people exist and are different to male, and presumably would not claim that being biologically female has not historically and still today lead to significant social constraints and risks that are specific to being biologically female, why is it so important to the TWAW crowd that women (in the original sense of female people) should not be allowed their own sex-specific rights, spaces and protections, not even allowed the language to speak of hiw being female impacts their lives for good or bad?

Why is it that they will only accept trans women being respected and protected if it also takes rights, protections and language away from women?

Why do they hate women so much?

There is so much confusion in this post.

And it also seems that there is confusion as to what is considered legitimate discrimination and illegitimate discrimination for the purpose of 'rights'.

It is legitimate to separate spaces based on sex based on male patterns of criminality which can be measured, plus the fact that male people are more powerful than female people on average. In fact, we know from the studies that in regards to power, iirc, the lower quartile of male people are still more powerful than the top decile of female people.

Hence it is not just pattern of behaviour, it is also the impact of that behaviour.

This has been forgotten when people start to discuss the 'rights' of some male people which end up being additional privileges. Because when looking at what is a reasonable accommodation for society to make for people in regards to their 'human rights', both those factors, behaviour patterns and impact need to be considered.

So your pivot to looking at female on female attacks is actually not something tends to be considered in the separation of spaces. It would be unworkable for one. But also there is no expectation that anyone has the right to be in a separate space to the rest of their sex in the provision of publicly accessed single sex spaces.

However, I am actually feeling like whatever you post, we have to clarify just who you are referring to. This is where precise and accurate language is needed.

When posters get mixed up with transwomen and transmen the way you have, it then makes discussion very difficult. Confusion reigns.

I do. It was hilarious. And they were young women too, which really puts the entire 'wait for the old women to die, there will be more acceptance' theory in the bin.

Young and pretty. The ‘pretty’ was probably the most rage inducing part.

They hate us 'cos they ain't us.

You ask for data from the opposing point of view
Data please. Show me evidence that...
and then follow it with anecdote to support your point of view
Personally I trust the refuge workers who say that...
and finish by asking for data from the opposing point of view again
but I'd love to see any data.

Do you not see how poor that makes your argument look? You are literally undermining yourself. Your argument is based on double standards. You've destroyed your own credibility. When I was talking about bad faith this is erxactly what I meant. Not that your point of view is opposed to mine, that's fine, but that your argument is based on double standards. And you call my argument a parody, you should take a look in a mirror.

The raging hypocrisy of the majority of posters on this thread is off the scale.

You bleat about fairness in one breath and in the next you are using reason and logic to engage in a battle of wits against an unarmed man.

Shame on you all.

“Personally I trust the refuge workers who say that genuine trans women are never the problem but I'd love to see any data.”

And yet a few years ago there were a series of posts from women recounting the negative impacts in refuges because male people were there. And they were scared to speak out because some still had need of the services so did so anonymously.

Stories such as how much inappropriate behaviour there was, intimidation too, sexual abuse. There was one woman who reported sharing a room with one who masturbated in the room when she was there.

And then came the stories of how when women complained, they were told that if they had an issue they should leave.

So I would not be trusting any person stating that male people are never the problem in refuges. But each to their own.