just checking - since the SC there is no such thing as misgendering on Mumsnet? Or is there??

[loveyouradvice]

Just checking we can refer to TIM as he now? I think so... The deeply admirable Helen Joyce does and I share her rationale...

Goes all the way back to the sublime Pronouns are rohypnol from a much loved mums netter...

Do you use pronouns that differ from your sex?

Can I make clear that if I ever correctly sex someone and they have a problem then it was nothing to do with me using "pronouns to provoke, harass, or target others" it was 100% down to the fact that my pronouns - the pronouns that I use to refer to other people - are sex-based and always have been (brief period between the insanity starting and peaking notwithstanding)?

No of course not, I've said already I'm female with no Y chromosome. It wouldn't much bother me to be referred to as they, though, just as it doesn't bother me to be referred to as Ms when I use Mrs. What is the relevance of your question?

I think if we want to keep men out of women's sport, off women's short lists, and out of women only spaces then we'll get on a lot better with that if we keep to the big issues and don't come across as fighting over a pronoun for the sake of it.
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As a neuro non typical I resent and struggle with the additional cognitive load of remembering to lie or otherwise override the normal patterns of language, on a case-by-case or per individual basis.

I'm already running social masking almost all the time, so having this additional social effort imposed or expected by people who apparently find it easy, isn't very considerate of my neuro diverse challenges.

No, I’d expect an understanding that being referred to by correct-sex pronouns isn’t a ‘mistake’ at all. It may be viewed as discourtesy, but a courtesy isn’t the same thing as a right, and compelling speech is decidedly discourteous too.

The flaw with this is that it is - IMHO - EXTREMELY "goading and hostile" to be a TIM, come onto a thread like this one, on a sub-forum where most people believe sex is real and matters and who believe that they own the pronouns that they use to refer to others, and that those pronouns are sex based.

I genuinely believe that demanding "respect" for a gender identity on a sub-forum where most people believe that gender ideology is inherently misogynistic and dangerous to kids, is EXTREMELY "goading and hostile". One could also argue that by demanding respet for their gender identity they are - by definition "using pronouns pointedly to belittle or provoke" those women who despise the ideology.

Well I think that we might start to agree here...

You can't impose solutions on people - so don't tell me to lie in how I address someone.

If their solution to their difficulty is to present on the female end of the gender spectrum then they are male - simply a new, pushing the gender boundaries type of male - great, so they are still he as a male

It feels to me as if insistence on the "he" pronoun is going some way towards agreeing that being female and femininity can be defined by clothes, behaviour and labels. No idea what you mean by this - sorry, don't understand it! Female = woman = born female = she / her; similarly Male = man - born male = he / him - not sure what you are saying that is different from that?

My femaleness, as far as I'm concerned is defined by the fact that I don't possess a Y chromosome. The rest is just today's conventional labels. Absolutely - and today's conventional label in pronoun form for a woman / female is she / her - glad we agree

But you don't know what sex people are anyway unless you know them.

Many people dress and behave either androgenously or into the opposite end of the gender spectrum than their sex.

I refuse to be defined as female by the way I behave and dress, that's what trans warriors have been trying to impose on women.

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We aren't going to agree on this, you know?

I can quite clearly tell which sex everyone is almost all the time, why ever would you assume I can't?

Sorry, the relevance of my question was that you seemed to be asking for consideration regarding your own hurt feelings.

Of course people can tell what sex other people are?!

If that's true, why do I so often get called "mate" and "sir" because I'm tall, broad shouldered, husky voiced, dress androgenously, wear no makeup and have short hair?
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You have no basis for that claim unless you've seen everyone naked, and probably not even then unless you gene test them.
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You must find life quite difficult.
I don’t know anyone who struggles with being able to tell what sex anybody else is.
Literally not a single person.

@Imdunfer That's completely ridiculous, you are not a serious individual

No, not at all, it's a huge advantage to a female to be tall and I could scrub up with the best when I was younger.

You don't know anyone who can 100% tell the sex of everyone else unless they have x ray eyes that can see through their clothes and an ability to detect their DNA.

There is an extremely tall, for a woman, and androgenous Scandinavian woman at a mixed sex class I go to. I have absolutely no idea what sex they are and I don't much care.

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I call lots of people mate, including four year old girls and boys, dogs, cats and next doors goldfish.

I also use honey, sweetie, duck, munchkin, etc.

Please don't call me ridiculous just because you don't agree with my opinion.
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You misunderstand everything I post 😬
I meant it must make life awkward not being able to tell what sex everyone around you is?
Wasn’t that obvious?

I called what you said ridiculous. I called you not a serious individual.

I chose my words carefully

I said in the post I am also called "sir". The "mate" I referred to is used as a male term. The last time it happened was 3 weeks ago by a bus driver, but it's happened all my life and happens to many women, especially tall ones with short hair who do not dress or act in a conventionally feminine manner.
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😂😂😂😂😂

Oh that's OK then

😂😂😂😂😂

Maybe the people addressing you as Sir are being polite, in case you’re deliberately trying to present as a man.
It’s unlikely they think you actually are one.

Noit doesn't at all and no it wasn't or I would have answered differently.

People may believe they can tell what sex everyone around them is but it isn't true.

If you think it's true then I challenge you to prove it.
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