just checking - since the SC there is no such thing as misgendering on Mumsnet? Or is there??

[loveyouradvice]

Just checking we can refer to TIM as he now? I think so... The deeply admirable Helen Joyce does and I share her rationale...

Goes all the way back to the sublime Pronouns are rohypnol from a much loved mums netter...

Seems fair and I appreciate the clarity, and that it is not easy to balance

We’ll also no longer use a rigid three strikes system.

Does that mean that all those "struck off" can rejoin?

I’m still not clear.

If I am talking about RMW or Eddie/Suzy Izzard, can I say “he said….” ?
What about posters who identify as trans or posters who post about friends/relatives who identify as trans? Can I refer to them by their biological sex?

Nothing about that post was clear, I suspect deliberately so.

I think we'll just have to use a bit of trial and error....

My suspicion is that it is fine when talking about Eddie Izzard or another TIM to call him him.... and to say Transwomen are Men .... BUT they will look more carefully at how we "harass" or not a TIM on a thread with us.... at least that is how I read what they've said here...

I've also had an email late afternoon from them....so hopefully they may give us more clarity - or just let us wing it and test boundaries... not sure....I suspect the second is easier for them as they can develop in response to what is happening on the thread.... We'll see

But personally I feel a huge relief in being able to talk about the men who believe they are transwomen and no longer having to pussy foot around that

Hello and thanks for reporting.

Just to let you know we're discussing this at MNHQ and will update as soon as we can.

Best wishes,
Becky
MNHQ

Just to let you know we're discussing this at MNHQ and will update as soon as we can.

So the post seemingly from MNHQ hasn't yet been discussed by MNHQ?

That makes two of us.

Posts that deliberately use names or pronouns to provoke, harass, or target others on a thread will be removed.

I'm reading this as if it only applies to people posting on threads here, not when talking about public figures/people in general.
eg: if a TIM posts on a thread here and I refer to him in another comment as HE, that could be seen as deliberately provoking them. My intention wouldn't be to deliberately harass or provoke, I would simply be using correct sex pronouns as I refuse to call a man SHE or vice versa. But the TIM in question would likely take offense so that's a strike for me.

So if does sound as though we are still compelled to use other posters preferred pronouns whether we like it or not.

And that's my beef. I shouldn't have to use incorrect language that makes me uncomfortable to suit someone else's sensibilities.

Or maybe, I've misinterpreted the reply I highlighted in bold above

Edited for spelling as usual

@GreenFriedTomato
That's my problem too. Calling a man she or vice versa is just so logically and grammatically wrong IMO. Plus the deliberate mental mis-step that is supposed to go on. People calling cars and boats 'she' makes me cringe too.

I think I can see and understand the fine line Mumsnet are trying to walk…

basically I would say crack on using correct pronouns, but if there are instances where a poster is deliberately trying to rile / annoy / etc someone else they may act… and I would assume that this applies however one person tries to annoy another.

It might mean sometimes not engaging with a particularly awkward poster, but stating your own philosophy / GC / legal based beliefs that there is only one pronoun for men and one for women is unlikely to be an issue - stalking the other poster through a thread / across the board correcting their misuse of pronouns might understandably be seen as aggressive and inappropriate

Yes - thank you, this is a really good summary and very much in the spirit of how we’re approaching things.

To clarify slightly further, users are welcome to state their views on pronouns, sex-based language, and so on, including gender-critical perspectives. That in itself isn’t a problem.

Where we’re more likely to step in is when it becomes targeted - for example, repeatedly correcting another poster in a way that feels goading or hostile, or using pronouns pointedly to belittle or provoke. As always, it’s about context and intent, rather than fixed rules. If something crosses the line into personal attack or sustained disrespect, we’ll act, as we would in any other part of Talk.

We’re always happy to clarify any decisions further if needed.

Not so - we sent this email before we posted here.

Thanks for the clarification.

Its good to have that made clear.

But this will all come down to reporting won't it?

If we refer to a poster on here that we know is a trans woman as he and he then reports it, is that going to be contrary to site rules.

Or do we always have to use preferred pronouns wrt to male posters who identify as trans?

Are we allowed to directly say to a poster who is a trans woman that they are a man and that is how we see them? Or must we defer to their preference?

I think if someone reports a post and claims they’re offended by it, MNHQ automatically delete it.
So we’re still in a no man’s land of technically being allowed to do something but getting a slap on the wrist / banning at the instigation of anyone who cares to hit the report button 🤷🏻‍♀️
What use is that?

yes that’s what I think. The men will still be able to control our speech.

So can we say "he" when referring to the likes if Bergdhof or not?

Presumably. MNHQ's reply appears to refer to when addressing/talking about other posters contributing to the thread. Not when discussing people in general.
Unless of course it's a certain public figure that reports threads/posts despite not engaging with them

Posts that deliberately use names or pronouns to provoke, harass, or target others on a thread will be removed.

Looks like the guidelines were simplified yesterday.
https://www.mumsnet.com/i/trans-rights-moderation-policy

…editing …sorry, didn’t mean that as a specific response to a post just a general thing.

I think the commitment to free speech - within the civility of talk guidelines - is important. I don’t think MNHQ will have much truck with people who aren’t engaged on a thread trying to suppress it.

For those who have a real problem calling someone they know is male "she", is it OK to call them "they"?

I feel it's rude to call someone "he" if they have asked you not to, and apart from in some very specific circumstances like the medical ones it really doesn't bother me, but maybe "they" would do for people who really are bothered?

If you're trans female or very "gender critical" would you accept that for the sake of not causing disruption?

ETA I'm female by chromosomes and identify as female, but have considerable sympathy for the difficulties of people who truly feel they were born in the wrong body.

It does look as if biological reality is slowly being reasserted. I would like to be able to use biologically correct pronouns for all posters.

(Still smarting from a deletion years ago where I used the correct pronoun for someone I knew, who was in no way identifiable, and whose transition in her late teens was causing a lot of of anguish to her relatives. That was when the term 'sacred caste' began to have real meaning for me, and that deletion did the trans cause no good at all.)

You don’t “call” anyone he or she, you refer to them as he or she in their absence.
Nobody should be either trying to police or getting upset at what happens when they’re not even in the bloody room.

If someone is male, they are he / him / etc. It is plain, simple and the truth.
For anyone to ask me to call them she / her when I know they are male and therefore can never be a woman - however they feel, is to ask me to lie.

If someone asks me to lie - they are the one being rude, and I am not being rude by refusing to lie and sticking to the truth.

Ultimately, pronouns are being used as a form of coercion in the form of a demand to tell a lie - used to validate / support the bigger lie of a person pretending to be a sex they aren't and can't be.

I will continue to use pronouns which are accurate and factual - I don't think that I will fall foul of any mumsnet concerns as I don't see a need to harass another poster on any issue - if someone tries to make an issue of it, then they are likely to be the one starting to create the problem, and it is more likely that mumsnet will deal with them - after all a continual demand to use inaccurate pronouns - is as much if not more harassment than continuing to use the correct and accurate ones...

Regarding Eddie, he has said call him whatever you like and I think that is entirely accepted by Mumsnet.

RMW is an occasional poster here and Mumsnet have commented before that they try to kind of mediate between posters and that it makes a difference.

My post on page 1 is also relevant here.

RMW is an occasional poster here and Mumsnet have commented before that they try to kind of mediate between posters and that it makes a difference

What does this mean?

RMW is not one to accept correct sexing, so would he attempt to have you banned or not?
Would MNHQ delete your post if he requested it? I’ve deliberately used ‘he’ so I guess I’ll find out…

You’d think that someone who operates in a sphere where people swear or affirm to tell ‘the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth’ would be able to understand and respect people who won’t say or write what they believe to be a lie.