just checking - since the SC there is no such thing as misgendering on Mumsnet? Or is there??

[loveyouradvice]

Just checking we can refer to TIM as he now? I think so... The deeply admirable Helen Joyce does and I share her rationale...

Goes all the way back to the sublime Pronouns are rohypnol from a much loved mums netter...

My position has remained the same from start to finish, but there's absolutely no point in continuing this discussion if people don't believe I'm for real. I'd be happy to meet anyone in a public space to prove my credibility. I'm very well known on another forum where I've been a member for close on 20 years.

Anyone else who quotes me will have to accept my aplogies for not replying, sorry.
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“I think if we want to keep men out of women's sport, off women's short lists, and out of women only spaces then we'll get on a lot better with that if we keep to the big issues and don't come across as fighting over a pronoun for the sake of it.”

I see this as another plea for being ‘moderate’ because to suit someone else’s need to be comfortable about their own beliefs.

The campaigning for the needs of female people to be prioritised requires accurate and precise language. Which is clearer?

She should not be allowed to use the female single sex space.

or

He should not be allowed to use the female single sex space.

Some people believe that this woman should not be competing in the female boxing category as they are too powerful.

or

Some people believe that this man should not be competing in the female boxing category as he is too powerful.

Clear and precise language is vital for the protection of female people.

Oh, fuckity bye then.

Sorry, that was quite rude but I actually found your stream of posts trying to manipulate me and others to accept that somebody has the fucking right to tell us what we are allowed or not allowed to say totally bloody insulting.

Telling people that it is ‘kind’ and ‘respectful’ to use their demanded pronouns or to avoid using correct sex pronouns really can only be described as emotionally manipulative. And just like the pronouns being rendered meaningless because to comply with a group’s philosophical belief, the words ‘kind’ and ‘respectful’ have also been made to mean the opposite of the original meanings for them.

If you are a person who finds emotionally manipulative arguments compelling, don’t be surprised when others reject those arguments.

because to comply with a group’s philosophical belief,

should be

because ‘they’ comply with a group’s philosophical belief.

Sorry about the typos.

How would you feel about calling your rapist a she in court if they "politely" requested it? Why would you do it for one (lovely colleague) but not the other? It is either unnecessary confrontational in all circumstances or it's ridiculous coercion and shouldn't be accepted. You can't pick and choose. Unless you are Nicola Sturgeon of course.

What someone calls you is not always an indication of what they perceive you to be - I am male (very clearly) yet when I spent my time teaching many decades ago - in a primary school it was very common then that the pupils up to 11 would call me ‘Miss’ as they were so used to schools which were predominantly female staff and not used to having a male teacher - nothing in that example around identification, just habit - so there can be many reasons why someone might inaccurately chose a pronoun.

But, that has nothing to do with the discussion here which is about compelled misuse / coercion to lie because it validates the lived lie that you can change sex - that is why correct pronouns are so important to use… it is a part of the armour deployed to hold back the advance of deception and oppression which we have seen over the last few decades which is predominantly about subjugation of the ‘weaker sex’ in a very structured and deliberate manner - and where a big part of the tactics has been to deploy small, seemingly harmless changes which ‘don’t matter, but just be kind’ but in reality are building a false base of evidence to validate the bigger lies…

I know plenty of women that fit your description. I almost fit that description myself. None of them are ever confused with men for more than a second.

Equally, men that wear make up and have long hair are very rarely confused with women close up.

It's usually very easy to tell women apart from men. No need for them to fit in with their rigid gender stereotypical appearances to achieve that.

Can I demand that people refer to me as 'her exquisite royale goddess' instead of GFT? And report all those who refuse, of harassment and some sort of non crime hate incident?

I think the video in this tweet of two male people discussing another male person who has competed in female boxing events is worth highlighting in relation to this recent series of posts.

x.com/gbnews/status/1929581274642923889?s=46

Particularly in seeing the clarity of the messaging from the language used by each of the two male people in the interview.

The use of they is also perfectly clear in those sentences. The use of she is patently ridiculous and not something I suggested.

I haven't suggested anyone should ever call a male she.

Congratulations, your almost masculine level of aggression has inspired me to continue to answer.

[QUOTE] It's usually very easy to tell women apart from men. [QUOTE]

Agreed.

Usually.

Not always.

I'm (just) nearer 70 than 60 and I have never referred to anyone as 'sir' since I left Primary school. I've never referred to anyone as 'madam' either. And I don't call people 'mate'. I have very very rarely (once in recent years) been referred to as 'madam' and always call it out as both odd and archaic.

What country do people live in where these terms are used as standard? I greet people I meet, say a general thank you and goodbye when I leave small shops and businesses, natter away to anyone and everyone who wants to natter, use people's names if I know their names, but 'sir', 'madam', and 'mate'? Nah, never.

And insisting on spelling 'androgynous' and 'androgenous' is a denial of the word's female component and although we all make spelling errors and typos, I find doing that consistently offensive.

It is not an argument. I am stating the reality that the imposition of pronouns is a political act. I, for one, will not go along with a political narrative with which I have fundamental issue...and one which seeks to compel obedience.

I will speak as I find. If someone is uncomfortable with being 'misegendered' that is their issue to deal with. I'm not going to tippy-toe around anyone who expects me to disregard that reality. It is the thin end of a very large wedge.

100%, sure, but people who think that female hips aren't immediately obvious 99.999999% of the time are also fooling themselves. You can usually tell from the footstep pattern without even seeing them

Women can be very assertive and angry too.

Your intention here is to try to convince people to go along with something they fundamentally disagree with, and which is against their own interests.

What else might you expect?

I am only suggesting that there is a solution to the problem of pronouns by using "they".

If people prefer to continue to call someone who has asked them not to he or she, that's up to them.

Not all trans people are radical male to female fighting terf wars.
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Then we agree, don't we?

Usually.

Not always.

Who is imposing pronouns on you? If your employer is they might now be breaking the law. I don't think anyone can impose them on you.
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And insisting on spelling 'androgynous' and 'androgenous' is a denial of the word's female component and although we all make spelling errors and typos, I find doing that consistently offensive.

I didn't realise it was a spelling error, sorry, it's what predictive text offered me, possibly because I've typed it wrongly before. There was no intention in the misspelling to offend.

Update. So predictive text offered me androgenous because it's a valid word, it just means something different to do with producing male offspring. You learn something new every day. 😁

andro = male

gynae = female

androgynous = showing characteristics of both sexes

androgens = hormones that trigger male physical characteristics

And insisting on spelling 'androgynous' and 'androgenous' is a denial of the word's female component and although we all make spelling errors and typos

I think you probably meant "as" not "and" there?