Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

just checking - since the SC there is no such thing as misgendering on Mumsnet? Or is there??

297 replies

loveyouradvice · 26/05/2025 15:06

Just checking we can refer to TIM as he now? I think so... The deeply admirable Helen Joyce does and I share her rationale...

Goes all the way back to the sublime Pronouns are rohypnol from a much loved mums netter...

OP posts:
Imdunfer · 04/06/2025 22:24

JanesLittleGirl · 04/06/2025 22:18

Of course you are dear. However, your elision from position to position would suggest otherwise.

My position has remained the same from start to finish, but there's absolutely no point in continuing this discussion if people don't believe I'm for real. I'd be happy to meet anyone in a public space to prove my credibility. I'm very well known on another forum where I've been a member for close on 20 years.

Anyone else who quotes me will have to accept my aplogies for not replying, sorry.
.

Helleofabore · 04/06/2025 22:32

I think if we want to keep men out of women's sport, off women's short lists, and out of women only spaces then we'll get on a lot better with that if we keep to the big issues and don't come across as fighting over a pronoun for the sake of it.

I see this as another plea for being ‘moderate’ because to suit someone else’s need to be comfortable about their own beliefs.

The campaigning for the needs of female people to be prioritised requires accurate and precise language. Which is clearer?

She should not be allowed to use the female single sex space.

or

He should not be allowed to use the female single sex space.

Some people believe that this woman should not be competing in the female boxing category as they are too powerful.

or

Some people believe that this man should not be competing in the female boxing category as he is too powerful.

Clear and precise language is vital for the protection of female people.

JanesLittleGirl · 04/06/2025 22:39

Imdunfer · 04/06/2025 22:24

My position has remained the same from start to finish, but there's absolutely no point in continuing this discussion if people don't believe I'm for real. I'd be happy to meet anyone in a public space to prove my credibility. I'm very well known on another forum where I've been a member for close on 20 years.

Anyone else who quotes me will have to accept my aplogies for not replying, sorry.
.

Oh, fuckity bye then.

Sorry, that was quite rude but I actually found your stream of posts trying to manipulate me and others to accept that somebody has the fucking right to tell us what we are allowed or not allowed to say totally bloody insulting.

Helleofabore · 04/06/2025 22:54

Telling people that it is ‘kind’ and ‘respectful’ to use their demanded pronouns or to avoid using correct sex pronouns really can only be described as emotionally manipulative. And just like the pronouns being rendered meaningless because to comply with a group’s philosophical belief, the words ‘kind’ and ‘respectful’ have also been made to mean the opposite of the original meanings for them.

If you are a person who finds emotionally manipulative arguments compelling, don’t be surprised when others reject those arguments.

Helleofabore · 04/06/2025 23:05

because to comply with a group’s philosophical belief,

should be

because ‘they’ comply with a group’s philosophical belief.

Sorry about the typos.

BiologicalRobot · 04/06/2025 23:17

Imdunfer · 04/06/2025 21:39

People do have the right to refuse.

What you don't have is the right not to seem, in some people's eyes, in some situations (eg insisting on calling a colleague who has politely requested that you refer to them in emails as they), unnecessarily confrontational.

.

How would you feel about calling your rapist a she in court if they "politely" requested it? Why would you do it for one (lovely colleague) but not the other? It is either unnecessary confrontational in all circumstances or it's ridiculous coercion and shouldn't be accepted. You can't pick and choose. Unless you are Nicola Sturgeon of course.

akkakk · 04/06/2025 23:30

What someone calls you is not always an indication of what they perceive you to be - I am male (very clearly) yet when I spent my time teaching many decades ago - in a primary school it was very common then that the pupils up to 11 would call me ‘Miss’ as they were so used to schools which were predominantly female staff and not used to having a male teacher - nothing in that example around identification, just habit - so there can be many reasons why someone might inaccurately chose a pronoun.

But, that has nothing to do with the discussion here which is about compelled misuse / coercion to lie because it validates the lived lie that you can change sex - that is why correct pronouns are so important to use… it is a part of the armour deployed to hold back the advance of deception and oppression which we have seen over the last few decades which is predominantly about subjugation of the ‘weaker sex’ in a very structured and deliberate manner - and where a big part of the tactics has been to deploy small, seemingly harmless changes which ‘don’t matter, but just be kind’ but in reality are building a false base of evidence to validate the bigger lies…

GreenFriedTomato · 05/06/2025 04:10

Imdunfer · 04/06/2025 19:00

If that's true, why do I so often get called "mate" and "sir" because I'm tall, broad shouldered, husky voiced, dress androgenously, wear no makeup and have short hair?
.

I know plenty of women that fit your description. I almost fit that description myself. None of them are ever confused with men for more than a second.

Equally, men that wear make up and have long hair are very rarely confused with women close up.

It's usually very easy to tell women apart from men. No need for them to fit in with their rigid gender stereotypical appearances to achieve that.

GreenFriedTomato · 05/06/2025 04:27

Helleofabore · 04/06/2025 22:23

“What you don't have is the right not to seem, in some people's eyes, in some situations (eg insisting on calling a colleague who has politely requested that you refer to them in emails as they), unnecessarily confrontational.”

What gives anyone the right to expect others to comply to demands of language usage when that demand is based on philosophical belief that doesn’t reflect material reality? Why is one person in this situation being prioritised over someone else?

Can I demand that people refer to me as 'her exquisite royale goddess' instead of GFT? And report all those who refuse, of harassment and some sort of non crime hate incident?

Helleofabore · 05/06/2025 06:10

Helleofabore · 04/06/2025 22:32

I think if we want to keep men out of women's sport, off women's short lists, and out of women only spaces then we'll get on a lot better with that if we keep to the big issues and don't come across as fighting over a pronoun for the sake of it.

I see this as another plea for being ‘moderate’ because to suit someone else’s need to be comfortable about their own beliefs.

The campaigning for the needs of female people to be prioritised requires accurate and precise language. Which is clearer?

She should not be allowed to use the female single sex space.

or

He should not be allowed to use the female single sex space.

Some people believe that this woman should not be competing in the female boxing category as they are too powerful.

or

Some people believe that this man should not be competing in the female boxing category as he is too powerful.

Clear and precise language is vital for the protection of female people.

I think the video in this tweet of two male people discussing another male person who has competed in female boxing events is worth highlighting in relation to this recent series of posts.

x.com/gbnews/status/1929581274642923889?s=46

Particularly in seeing the clarity of the messaging from the language used by each of the two male people in the interview.

Imdunfer · 05/06/2025 07:35

Helleofabore · 05/06/2025 06:10

I think the video in this tweet of two male people discussing another male person who has competed in female boxing events is worth highlighting in relation to this recent series of posts.

x.com/gbnews/status/1929581274642923889?s=46

Particularly in seeing the clarity of the messaging from the language used by each of the two male people in the interview.

The use of they is also perfectly clear in those sentences. The use of she is patently ridiculous and not something I suggested.

Imdunfer · 05/06/2025 07:38

BiologicalRobot · 04/06/2025 23:17

How would you feel about calling your rapist a she in court if they "politely" requested it? Why would you do it for one (lovely colleague) but not the other? It is either unnecessary confrontational in all circumstances or it's ridiculous coercion and shouldn't be accepted. You can't pick and choose. Unless you are Nicola Sturgeon of course.

I haven't suggested anyone should ever call a male she.

Imdunfer · 05/06/2025 07:39

JanesLittleGirl · 04/06/2025 22:39

Oh, fuckity bye then.

Sorry, that was quite rude but I actually found your stream of posts trying to manipulate me and others to accept that somebody has the fucking right to tell us what we are allowed or not allowed to say totally bloody insulting.

Congratulations, your almost masculine level of aggression has inspired me to continue to answer.

Imdunfer · 05/06/2025 07:43

[QUOTE] It's usually very easy to tell women apart from men. [QUOTE]

Agreed.

Usually.

Not always.

DeanElderberry · 05/06/2025 07:54

I'm (just) nearer 70 than 60 and I have never referred to anyone as 'sir' since I left Primary school. I've never referred to anyone as 'madam' either. And I don't call people 'mate'. I have very very rarely (once in recent years) been referred to as 'madam' and always call it out as both odd and archaic.

What country do people live in where these terms are used as standard? I greet people I meet, say a general thank you and goodbye when I leave small shops and businesses, natter away to anyone and everyone who wants to natter, use people's names if I know their names, but 'sir', 'madam', and 'mate'? Nah, never.

And insisting on spelling 'androgynous' and 'androgenous' is a denial of the word's female component and although we all make spelling errors and typos, I find doing that consistently offensive.

Shortshriftandlethal · 05/06/2025 07:56

Imdunfer · 04/06/2025 16:58

I've seen the argument beforeand think it is overplayed. It doesn't hurt me to use "they". I'm as firm a believe in genetic binary sex as anyone in the world, but language evolves and "they" is not misrepresentation. It does not impose anything on anyone, it is already widely in use when sex is not known. Why would you insist on a sexed label in situations where the sex of the person is irrelevant (that's most of the time in my life) and they have asked you not to do that?
.

It is not an argument. I am stating the reality that the imposition of pronouns is a political act. I, for one, will not go along with a political narrative with which I have fundamental issue...and one which seeks to compel obedience.

I will speak as I find. If someone is uncomfortable with being 'misegendered' that is their issue to deal with. I'm not going to tippy-toe around anyone who expects me to disregard that reality. It is the thin end of a very large wedge.

DeanElderberry · 05/06/2025 07:56

Imdunfer · 04/06/2025 20:48

No.

People who think they can 100% tell a dressed male from a dressed female are fooling themselves.
.

100%, sure, but people who think that female hips aren't immediately obvious 99.999999% of the time are also fooling themselves. You can usually tell from the footstep pattern without even seeing them

Shortshriftandlethal · 05/06/2025 07:59

Imdunfer · 05/06/2025 07:39

Congratulations, your almost masculine level of aggression has inspired me to continue to answer.

Women can be very assertive and angry too.

Your intention here is to try to convince people to go along with something they fundamentally disagree with, and which is against their own interests.

What else might you expect?

Imdunfer · 05/06/2025 08:05

Shortshriftandlethal · 05/06/2025 07:59

Women can be very assertive and angry too.

Your intention here is to try to convince people to go along with something they fundamentally disagree with, and which is against their own interests.

What else might you expect?

Edited

I am only suggesting that there is a solution to the problem of pronouns by using "they".

If people prefer to continue to call someone who has asked them not to he or she, that's up to them.

Not all trans people are radical male to female fighting terf wars.
.

Imdunfer · 05/06/2025 08:06

DeanElderberry · 05/06/2025 07:56

100%, sure, but people who think that female hips aren't immediately obvious 99.999999% of the time are also fooling themselves. You can usually tell from the footstep pattern without even seeing them

Then we agree, don't we?

Usually.

Not always.

Imdunfer · 05/06/2025 08:07

Shortshriftandlethal · 05/06/2025 07:56

It is not an argument. I am stating the reality that the imposition of pronouns is a political act. I, for one, will not go along with a political narrative with which I have fundamental issue...and one which seeks to compel obedience.

I will speak as I find. If someone is uncomfortable with being 'misegendered' that is their issue to deal with. I'm not going to tippy-toe around anyone who expects me to disregard that reality. It is the thin end of a very large wedge.

Edited

Who is imposing pronouns on you? If your employer is they might now be breaking the law. I don't think anyone can impose them on you.
.

Imdunfer · 05/06/2025 08:09

DeanElderberry · 05/06/2025 07:54

I'm (just) nearer 70 than 60 and I have never referred to anyone as 'sir' since I left Primary school. I've never referred to anyone as 'madam' either. And I don't call people 'mate'. I have very very rarely (once in recent years) been referred to as 'madam' and always call it out as both odd and archaic.

What country do people live in where these terms are used as standard? I greet people I meet, say a general thank you and goodbye when I leave small shops and businesses, natter away to anyone and everyone who wants to natter, use people's names if I know their names, but 'sir', 'madam', and 'mate'? Nah, never.

And insisting on spelling 'androgynous' and 'androgenous' is a denial of the word's female component and although we all make spelling errors and typos, I find doing that consistently offensive.

And insisting on spelling 'androgynous' and 'androgenous' is a denial of the word's female component and although we all make spelling errors and typos, I find doing that consistently offensive.

I didn't realise it was a spelling error, sorry, it's what predictive text offered me, possibly because I've typed it wrongly before. There was no intention in the misspelling to offend.

Imdunfer · 05/06/2025 08:16

Update. So predictive text offered me androgenous because it's a valid word, it just means something different to do with producing male offspring. You learn something new every day. 😁

DeanElderberry · 05/06/2025 08:17

andro = male

gynae = female

androgynous = showing characteristics of both sexes

androgens = hormones that trigger male physical characteristics

Imdunfer · 05/06/2025 08:19

And insisting on spelling 'androgynous' and 'androgenous' is a denial of the word's female component and although we all make spelling errors and typos

I think you probably meant "as" not "and" there?