just checking - since the SC there is no such thing as misgendering on Mumsnet? Or is there??

[loveyouradvice]

Just checking we can refer to TIM as he now? I think so... The deeply admirable Helen Joyce does and I share her rationale...

Goes all the way back to the sublime Pronouns are rohypnol from a much loved mums netter...

Well from that using correct pronouns is fine. Unless 'derogatory or aggressive' is entirely in the eye of the beholder.

It’s a thin line, I’d say, but as his sex is directly relevant to this discussion, my guess is these posts probably won’t get removed. I think (though I’m obviously not moderating) that there are times when we are considered to be using he vindictively, unnecessarily and as an insult and it’s then that the post might be removed.

The problem with drawing arbitrary lines (another example being, which men do you allow into women’s spaces if you allow some in) is you end up with an awkward system where everyone other than the person trying to control the system is walking on eggshells and is placed in a difficult situation where it’s a guessing game as to where the line is.

At least we have moved past the “three strikes and you’re out,” days, thank goodness. That really did have a chilling effect and there were sometimes weeks on end when I would stay away because I knew one foot over the line could get me my last strike.

It’s way better than it was and we are allowed to correctly sex a lot more than we could a while back. We’ll get there eventually, I think. Once there have been a couple of court cases where it’s established that correctly sexing isn’t a crime, I suspect Mumsnet will stop having to walk on eggshells (they are doing it too) and we can all let out a sigh of relief.

Why can't you call them "they"? That's not lying. We use "they" all the time when referring to professionals whose sex we don't know. As in "you saw the doctor yesterday, what did they say?".

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We use "they" all the time when referring to professionals whose sex we don't know.

In the example we don't know the sex of the doctor so refer to them as they. When we do know the sex of person it is not usual to refer to them as 'they' but by their sexed pronoun. As in "you saw Sarah yesterday, what did he say?"

No it isn't usual, but would people really prefer to upset someone than do something that's already accepted grammar?

you might use it in that way - I wouldn't, I might clarify whether they were male / female and then use he / she - but not they...

It is bad grammar, clumsy and inaccurate - unless perhaps they have multiple personalities!

As you must be aware the issue of pronouns is highly contentious because it is also highly political. It is not just about being polite or kind, but about the imposition of an ideological narrative with which many have profound disagreement.

This - and it has been made an issue because it is designed to force GC and others to validate the living lie of pretending that you can change to be the opposite sex.

It is a part of the clever narrative that says "oh this is so small an issue and so unimportant, you won't mind just fitting in so as to not upset billy-bob-sarah..."
But the simple push back against that is to remember that it is not a small insignificant thing - it is about validating a lie, it is coercive and I am not going to be made to tell lies. To ask me to do so is itself insulting and rude.

It is just as much a mental contortion to refer to Sarah as 'they' when they are a male as it is to refer to them as 'she'. Compelled speech is harassment.

Are they genuinely upset by reality? If so, the treatment they are receiving is ineffective. This is where medicalised “transition” is failing now and why it is causing so many problems. You cannot create a successful medical treatment that requires the whole world to lie for your patients.

While men are trying to steal my rights, I reserve the right not to comply with their demands.

I've seen the argument beforeand think it is overplayed. It doesn't hurt me to use "they". I'm as firm a believe in genetic binary sex as anyone in the world, but language evolves and "they" is not misrepresentation. It does not impose anything on anyone, it is already widely in use when sex is not known. Why would you insist on a sexed label in situations where the sex of the person is irrelevant (that's most of the time in my life) and they have asked you not to do that?
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Well "they" are a group of people who I can't speak for, but if they say so as individuals and it costs me nothing to use "they" when talking about them, then I will.

Many of them lead difficult lives feeling out of sorts with their own bodies and out of sync with society, I'm not going to make that harder for them out of some insistence on a point of grammar.
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I highly doubt they'd be okay with "they" either...

It may not hurt you, it hurts me because I thoroughly disagree with any kind of language I’m pushed towards that goes against what I believe.

If someone told me I had to bow my head while someone else prayed or I had to give a specific greeting related to their religion, which I didn’t believe in, I would also object. If it was a neutral religion, I’d also put up with more than if it was a religion I felt was oppressive or misogynistic. Which is exactly what gender beliefs are.

Personally I don’t mind too much using ‘they’, and I’ve got quite adept at avoiding using pronouns. But I understand why many women do object, and I entirely support them not wanting their language policed.

As soon as you have to think about a pronoun rather than it falling naturally from your lips (or fingers), then it’s ceased to have its linguistic utility as a convenient alternative to a proper noun.

I think it's recorded fact that some are. These are individuals we are taking about.

The radical trans warriors who want to change in a women's changing room while having a penis visibly on display can be as unhappy as they like, they can't force anyone to call them "she". And it is always "she" amongst the radical element, isn't it?
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I take the point and I would expect an understanding that mistakes will happen from people who might prefer to be referred to in other ways. As opposed to being reported to management or even the police.

I continue to question why the policy appears to be called 'trans rights moderation policy' (or at least this is the name of the policy in the link, even if not the title of the policy)

Why is it not 'women's rights moderation policy'?

On pronouns, I'll use sex based ones or at a push, the person's name. I'm not up for being compelled to lie. If I get a deletion, then so be it.

The accepted grammar is not to use ‘they’ if you know the sex if the person you are referring to though, so it’s still a lie.

If we know the sex of the person, the accepted grammar is to use the appropriate pronoun for their sex. Anything is else is not ‘accepted’, it is highly contested.

Remember also that we are talking about a person not present so there is no reason for them to be upset anyway.

because - I am not the solution to their feeling out of sorts with their bodies - the solution lies in mental health treatment, not in compelling others to join the pretence.

You may be happy, and that is great, others are not - for me it comes down to honesty - am I being asked to be honest / being allowed to be honest, or am I being coerced / bullied into doing something that is not the norm.

And at a simple level there are rules to grammar - does it matter, perhaps not, but that is not the point - any one aspect of the discussion, however small is a step towards or away from truth.

They/ she/ he is often used in written communication where the person concerned will receive or see a copy.

I don't personally consider the use of they in reference to a single person a lie. Females and males are routinely referred to as they as part of a group and in their professional roles.
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Females and males are routinely referred to as they as part of a group
Yes, and?
That’s just following the rules of grammar, not tiptoeing round anyone’s potential hurt feelings on encountering reality.

You can't impose solutions on people that they don't want. If their solution to their difficulty is to present on the female end of the gender spectrum, who are you to tell them to get psychotherapy rather than ask politely to be called they?

It feels to me as if insistence on the "he" pronoun is going some way towards agreeing that being female and femininity can be defined by clothes, behaviour and labels.

My femaleness, as far as I'm concerned is defined by the fact that I don't possess a Y chromosome. The rest is just today's conventional labels.

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This is my view too.

I generally call someone by their name, or "you".

And if I am referring to someone who is clearly not what they say they are, I might just refer to their name throughout my post, which I've seen a lot of people do on here.

I find the world a much easier place to live in if a few people step a bit more carefully around my own potential for hurt feelings, as a neuro non typical. They doesn't seem a big ask, to me.