Thank You from a Trans Lurker

[Seethlaw]

I want to thank you all wonderful people for fighting the good fight despite everything that's been thrown at you. I was an intermittent lurker for years before your arguments finally made it through my barriers. I'm in awe of your courage and tenacity and impossible patience!

I'm a trans man from another European country. I used to be extremely baffled by you GC people. I couldn't help but wonder what on Earth possessed you to go after trans people. I couldn't understand how anyone could think that trans people, that minuscule minority, was any kind of threat to anyone. I was devastated when I learned that one of my favourite authors (not JKR) had "gone TERF".

Again and again, I went back to what I thought were the basics: there is nothing wrong with being trans, and we just want to live our lives in peace.

But stuff happened over the years, some in real life and some on MN where I would lurk once in a while. Coincidentally, it was on the day of the UKSC ruling that I found myself here again, and I was absolutely horrified, and I finally accepted the unacceptable: it was never the TERFs going after the trans. It was the trans going after women's places and even the very definition of the word "woman".

Since then, I've watched the fallout of the SC decision. And my stomach has been sinking as trans person after trans person has come here, trotted out the same old, long-debunked arguments, and hurled abuse and disrespect in the name of "Me, me, me!" And the thing is, I can't even fool myself that they are not "real" trans people.

Back when I transitioned, more than a decade ago, in my country, I searched for trans support groups, and I encountered that very phenomenon of trans people (mostly trans women, though by no means all of them) demanding that the world twist around them. I told myself then that they were not representative of trans people, but the thing is: they are the loudest ones, and the most demanding ones - and as such, the most visible ones. I don't know yet what I can or will do about that, but at least now I'm aware that when people talk about trans people, they might be thinking of such individuals.

Thank you to anyone who read that far, and thank you again for everything you've done. You people rock 👍 !!

All the things that I've seen said about trans women, how deluded they are etc etc etc you should be saying the same arguments to OP but no one is
No-one will though, as the trans man narrative is different on here - people will see him as being lost and in need of saving, so are being nice.
If you're a trans woman though, the narrative is instant hostility because - man wanting to be a pervert.

Er, NO! You still don't get it. It's not about 'trans' at....all.

It's about the OP being FEMALE.

A feminist forum supports and defends and feels more for the FEMALE sex class.

Again, for the tenth fucking time, it's about the SEX. Male vs female. Nothing at all to do with 'trans'.

THE OP is open, honest and realistic about their trans identity and does not seek to impose it on others. The OP also has empathy with women and considers their needs important.

Because the OP has clearly stated that they know that they are female, but has chosen to present otherwise for their own happiness, and does not require validation from others, just from their own feelings.

And there were two TWs on this thread who were engaged with respectfully as they were respectful.

Maybe you missed that.

For the ELEVENTH....FUCKING....TIME, it's because the OP is FEMALE.

Not because they are trans or non trans!

Because they are FUCKING FEMALE!!!

FEMALE!

You have appeared on one thread. This forum has been active for many years and the discussions therein have been detailed and long. You seem to have launched yourself in without any wider contextual awareness or knowledge.

Who are you talking to?

I don't mock trans women. I have asked the trans women who post here to explain how their understanding of themself as a woman fits in with mine, and why their understanding of themself as a women means not just that the meaning of woman needs to change for everyone regardless of how we may see ourselves, but also that female people are not allowed to redefine ourselves as outside that new meaning of women and that it is hateful and exclusive for us to create our own new groups and maintain our original sex based rights even though this new definition of woman explicitly excludes those concerns.

To put it very simply, the OP makes no demands. Does not demand that people ignore the evidence of their eyes, twist reality or give up safe spaces, sport etc.

That tends to mean that people engage in good faith and politely.

Er NO!! You're not getting it! It really is pointless talking to you people

Um - because the OP is not claiming to be a man in the same way as trans women are claiming to be women? She is not claiming her need to identify as a man has to redefine everyone else as well. On the conrtary she describes it as a personal feeling, that she has no idea if it's actually what men experience at all, she doesn't feel she has the authority to speak for men "as a man". She understands the reality that she is a women who feels happier defining herself as a man whether or not anyone accepts her as such.

I mean, have you even read her posts?

I think Reddit might suit this poster better.

What is infuriating is that you cannot seem to discriminate between one type of circumstance and another. You seem to be operating under the assumption that what you would find would be 'transphobia' ....maybe because you are seeing everything in a black and white way. That disagreement about gender ideology and what it is and how it operates must mean automatic hatred of 'trans people'.

This is not about individuals, though ( unless those individuals are disrespectful and knowingly violate female boundaries). If someone posts in a respectful and considered way then they will receive respectful and considered responses. That doesn't necessarily have to mean agreement with solutions, though.

The most important consideration is that people need to respect female boundaries and female dignity. You can identify however you like, but it doesn't change the facts of your sex.

Who are " you people"? That's a bit of a generalisation isn't it? There are hundreds of people here - from all walks of life and all types of background. What they all have in common is that they want to retain the protections and rights afforded to the female sex.

You''ll get back what you put in. So best make a proper effort.

FWIW one of the funniest and most human posts I've ever read on this board was by a trans woman years ago. I often wonder what happened to them and how the evolving landscape has treated them.

Because the OP is a female posting on a feminist board, who is not demanding or using emotionally manipulative tactics of other female people such as making language or any other accommodations for them. The OP is not demanding access to female single sex provisions that the OP isn't entitled to.

It is actually really not that hard to understand. There are a few female people on this board with transgender identities who post regularly (I believe that Seethlaw is the third regular that I know of) but who also have never tried to demand or emotionally manipulate other female people to support their beliefs by acting as if they are male, using language accommodations for them etc. They post about their perspective on feminism and on whether gender or sex should be prioritised.

Why should feminist have to accommodate male people who post on a feminist board that they should be included in single sex provisions designated for female people and to progress female people out of a millennia of negative sexist discrimination and oppression?

I get the feeling that I must have missed whole chunks of OP's posts because I seem to have missed OP acting as if she has redefined feminism to suit her, and missed OP demanding things of us that OP is not already entitled to as a female person with a transgender identity.

I also must have missed her insisting that men treat her as if she was male.

There really seems to be disconnect between what Seethlaw has posted and what some posters are reading, but I am happy to be corrected if she has indeed done this on this or any other thread.

Er, I agree with everything @FlirtsWithRhinos said in that post?

It becomes apparent after a while that some people are operating under their own entrenched prejudices that FWR is transphobic.

They forget that there is a huge portion of female people who have transgender identities and that we often have discussions with them and we include them in feminism. Because they are FEMALE. Their needs are highly aligned with our needs because they are FEMALE.

And most of the posters who come here, including some who are regular posters, support the feminist campaigns around this issue because they fully understand the needs as a female person. They are not demanding access to provisions that are not rightfully theirs.

And they tend to have similar experiences to relate. There is one who occasionally popped in a year ago who told us of the apps they use and the efforts that they go to so that they, who had made significant effort to present as a male person, and others that they knew would not cause any female person distress entering a female single sex toilet. But that they are careful when and where they use any male single sex toilet too.

They don't demand to be referred to as he/him, they carefully explain their needs and in doing so we gain the knowledge of those needs and what they are also doing for themselves quietly without any public attention.

But if FWR was truly 'transphobic', those female people would not be listened to as they are.

There is also the issue of negative feedback farming where a poster will enter a thread and use negative generalisations, name call and not engage beyond censuring posters, then they claim to be attacked. It is a self fulfilling engagement cycle.

Isn't it transphobic to expect a female person with a transgender identity to react in the way that some people expect a male person with a transgender identity to react?

And fucking sexist to boot?

It does seem a shame that a couple of posters are trying to derail an interesting and respectful discussion to make it about them, rather than enjoy the spirit of the conversation and contribute positively.

Just quoting my own post.

What is also ignored is the male people who start threads or contribute on this board about them accessing female single sex provisions is them transgressing into a feminist space. It is still a feminist board.

I think there are an issue with some posters not being able to recognise that just the act of ignoring female people's boundaries and any space where female people are centred is a significant issue. And that crossing boundaries is part of the attraction for some, if not many, male people with transgender identities. It may not be them doing it out of hate or intend to harm, but they certainly get a positive emotional response within themselves at accessing a space that it centring female people.

This is a feminism board. By its very nature it is attractive to a male person who wishes to cross that boundary. However, it is a space for female people to discuss feminism and female people's needs.

It's also about the OP being polite and reasonable.

I'll respond accordingly. Whatever anyone's sex or gender.

Although males on a.feminist board on a website primarily for women should be aware of the fact and respectful of that.

How about you don't make assumptions about other people's views? We are right here.

OP doesn't seem lost or in need of saving.