Thank You from a Trans Lurker

[Seethlaw]

I want to thank you all wonderful people for fighting the good fight despite everything that's been thrown at you. I was an intermittent lurker for years before your arguments finally made it through my barriers. I'm in awe of your courage and tenacity and impossible patience!

I'm a trans man from another European country. I used to be extremely baffled by you GC people. I couldn't help but wonder what on Earth possessed you to go after trans people. I couldn't understand how anyone could think that trans people, that minuscule minority, was any kind of threat to anyone. I was devastated when I learned that one of my favourite authors (not JKR) had "gone TERF".

Again and again, I went back to what I thought were the basics: there is nothing wrong with being trans, and we just want to live our lives in peace.

But stuff happened over the years, some in real life and some on MN where I would lurk once in a while. Coincidentally, it was on the day of the UKSC ruling that I found myself here again, and I was absolutely horrified, and I finally accepted the unacceptable: it was never the TERFs going after the trans. It was the trans going after women's places and even the very definition of the word "woman".

Since then, I've watched the fallout of the SC decision. And my stomach has been sinking as trans person after trans person has come here, trotted out the same old, long-debunked arguments, and hurled abuse and disrespect in the name of "Me, me, me!" And the thing is, I can't even fool myself that they are not "real" trans people.

Back when I transitioned, more than a decade ago, in my country, I searched for trans support groups, and I encountered that very phenomenon of trans people (mostly trans women, though by no means all of them) demanding that the world twist around them. I told myself then that they were not representative of trans people, but the thing is: they are the loudest ones, and the most demanding ones - and as such, the most visible ones. I don't know yet what I can or will do about that, but at least now I'm aware that when people talk about trans people, they might be thinking of such individuals.

Thank you to anyone who read that far, and thank you again for everything you've done. You people rock 👍 !!

No, I just read a lot more of the threads on here and felt disgusted at the attitudes displayed. If you want to pretend it's not there that's fine.

Gonna show some examples?

You're adding "to everyone's satisfaction" out of nowhere. I never asked that from Beatrice.

Two trans women spoke up in this very thread, and were not received with hatred. How do you explain that?

I suggest taking the OP's lead and not engaging with poor attempts at starting a bunfight.

Thanks for the French links - will read up on them.

I used to be on the other side, where I needed to believe that Mumsnet was a hive of villainy, and everyone on it was just a big bad transphobe. I have no doubt that a thread like this one would have created a huge amount of cognitive dissonance, and I would have been desperate to solve it with any explanation.

Plus, well, I'm a trans man, and TRAs are all about centering trans women, so GC people being nice to a trans man doesn't really prove anything, you know? Same old...

@Seethlaw
Would you recommend Transmania? I tried to find an English translation to no avail. I gather UK publishers wouldn't touch it!

The ten commandments remind me of a lecture I watched, about gender ideology being a method of instigating a transhumanist revolution. Sounds mental, but I think we departed from sanity a long time ago. I'll have a look for a link to the video...

What is interesting is that of course, female people who have transgender identities are included in feminism because they are female people and have need of benefits of feminist campaigning. It is often ignored that those people should be contributing to these threads.

What is also ignored is the male people who start threads or contribute on this board about them accessing female single sex provisions is them transgressing into a feminist space. It is still a feminist board. Too often their posts cross into demands for access to those provisions or attempts at emotionally manipulating feminists to include them.

Oh, absolutely, I wholeheartedly recommend it! I read it in a single free day, even though it's 350+ pages long, because it's really fascinating, like an unending train wreck.

My only concern would be that I'm not sure how much someone who's been on MN for a while would learn from it? I already knew much of what's in the first part, which takes up about half of the book, but I immensely appreciate having everything in one place.

The second part talks about the international TRA lobby and was a total eye-opener to me. And yes, in the third part, they discuss among other things what you mention, "about gender ideology being a method of instigating a transhumanist revolution", and it's totally mental indeed, but apparently some people are serious about it.

Oh, and of course it centres France quite a bit, but there's still a whole lot of references to other countries. Maya Forstater for example gets a couple of mentions, among several other names I'm used to reading about around here.

Not being willing to pretend they are women doesn't mean we hate them.

Whereas it is clear that many of them do actually hate us. Where's your anger and disapproval about that?

@Seethlaw
Thanks, I'd love to read it but my French comprehension is definitely inadequate!
I think the video title is wrong; he talks about revolution rather than cult. I didn't love the speaker but I thought it was fascinating. Genspect have had a few conferences with some amazing speakers, explaining how the ideology infected the (English-speaking) world and corrupted our institutions. It makes me really glad there are all these people who've been documenting it for years, while I was oblivious to what was happening.

touched on the transhumanist dreams of some trans activists, which left the scifi fan part of me very excited

May not be what you are referring to, but Shulamith Firestone who was a very influential radical feminist has been called a transhumanist.

But in her specific idea that aritificial wombs who be the answer to women paying the "pregnancy" penalty in a male dominated world, meant some radical feminists were not supportive.

But like many women writing at that time had no concept of just how far reaching the trans agenda would be today compared to the times she was writing in.

https://teoriaevolutiva.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/firestone-shulamith-dialectic-sex-case-feminist-revolution.pdf
(Not sure this contributes to the discussion on this thread but for anyone interested in her writing.)

I notice no examples of trans women being mistreated on this board have been provided. Its always the same. Give examples - Tumbleweeds and silence.

@rebmacesrevda

Thanks for the link! I've started listening, but the speaker is hard for me to follow, and he takes forever to get to his points. The topic does sound interesting, though.

@IwantToRetire

Oh, Shulamith Firestone! She's mentioned in the Transmania book. Thanks for the link, I'll take a look.

It's males. Not 'trans women'. It's males that come on here throwing their weight around, dictating to us the terms of a discussion, telling we can't refer to this and can't refer to that.

In short: it is Male Entitlement.

That is what we are reacting to. Not transwomen per se. You've had this explained to you before.

I also think that if @PhoebesPony had seen how many threads even for advice (ie marriage, women expect more help with baby, paranoid women etc) by men who say they are a man and looking for advice re their marriage, how many women go for his jugular right away, sadly. Women tend to think the worse of the man asking for help on here, and react. And these are so-called c1s men on here, not trans. And they get a hostile reception the moment they speak. So what is PhoebesPony's explanation for that, then? They don't get any better reception for being 'cis'.

It's a reaction to MALES. They are not looked on favourably on here. Regardless of marriage, income problems, housework share.... or, trans issues. It is MALES we react to. They always get a bad reception on here. That should have been the clue to Phoebes. We're reacting to males. Men. That's it. You could accuse us of being men haters or misandrists. But it's about males. That some maybe trans is completely incidental. 'Cis' get no better reception. That there, is the clue.

Did you get a smacked arse from your HQ and told to do better to stir the pot?

Your HQ?! 😁
That conspiracy theory thing again where if you're posting from the "other side", you must be some part of a Big Boss Group calling into some kind of Leader. Rather than you know, just an ordinary poster.
It's utterly bizarre.

Lol yes I have no connection to any trans rights groups or anything, I'm just saying what I see on here.

Same 😁

Ah, are we just saying what we are seeing then?

Great!

I'm seeing two people back slapping each other about how nasty everyone but them is while studiously ignoring the big picture that the people who are what they term "hating trans people" are trying to highlight that redefing "women" and "men" as mixed sex states of mind is a massive backstep for women's autonomy, social and cultural presence and women's rights, is leading vulnerable people to make extremely damaging and poorly evidenced interventions to their bodies in pursuit of an imagined state that does not in reality exist, and is legimitising a cohort of men - not all trans women, but not no trans women either - who have very damaging and sexualised ideas about what women are and how we live.

Just saying what I see here, but I'm kind of on the side of people who don't this is ok to be honest.

Thus proving the point I made in the first place - that OP was only getting a good reception because they are a trans man, and blowing out of the water the idea that people would be nice to a trans woman if only they were respectful. It wouldn't matter how a trans woman was on here - they would be insulted and ridiculed

trying to highlight that redefing "women" and "men" as mixed sex states of mind is a massive backstep for women's autonomy

"GC" is what is a massive back step for women's autonomy imo.
Trying to police what grown adults can and can't do with their bodies, dismissing trans men as poor, lost little girls who don't know any better or have been "captured," (which is the usual narrative)
If you start wanting to mess about with bodily autonomy for people who are trans, it's not likely to end well for all women.

Make all these points to OP then! Surely you feel the same towards them. I'm just trying to make the point of how different OP is being treated. All the things that I've seen said about trans women, how deluded they are etc etc etc you should be saying the same arguments to OP but no one is. That's what is infuriating.

Why aren't you mocking OP the way you do trans women? It's there in so many comments on the boards. But OP gets an easy ride, I'm glad they do but it's kind of sickening to see the difference