Thank You from a Trans Lurker

[Seethlaw]

I want to thank you all wonderful people for fighting the good fight despite everything that's been thrown at you. I was an intermittent lurker for years before your arguments finally made it through my barriers. I'm in awe of your courage and tenacity and impossible patience!

I'm a trans man from another European country. I used to be extremely baffled by you GC people. I couldn't help but wonder what on Earth possessed you to go after trans people. I couldn't understand how anyone could think that trans people, that minuscule minority, was any kind of threat to anyone. I was devastated when I learned that one of my favourite authors (not JKR) had "gone TERF".

Again and again, I went back to what I thought were the basics: there is nothing wrong with being trans, and we just want to live our lives in peace.

But stuff happened over the years, some in real life and some on MN where I would lurk once in a while. Coincidentally, it was on the day of the UKSC ruling that I found myself here again, and I was absolutely horrified, and I finally accepted the unacceptable: it was never the TERFs going after the trans. It was the trans going after women's places and even the very definition of the word "woman".

Since then, I've watched the fallout of the SC decision. And my stomach has been sinking as trans person after trans person has come here, trotted out the same old, long-debunked arguments, and hurled abuse and disrespect in the name of "Me, me, me!" And the thing is, I can't even fool myself that they are not "real" trans people.

Back when I transitioned, more than a decade ago, in my country, I searched for trans support groups, and I encountered that very phenomenon of trans people (mostly trans women, though by no means all of them) demanding that the world twist around them. I told myself then that they were not representative of trans people, but the thing is: they are the loudest ones, and the most demanding ones - and as such, the most visible ones. I don't know yet what I can or will do about that, but at least now I'm aware that when people talk about trans people, they might be thinking of such individuals.

Thank you to anyone who read that far, and thank you again for everything you've done. You people rock 👍 !!

A really good thread went downhill fast.
Mumsnet needs a block button.

Why, because you can't cope with anyone having a different point of view or questioning anything?

But you're not questioning. You were, but now you're scolding.

One of the good things about this site though is that there isn't a block button - do you want it to become even more of an echo chamber, only seeing posts you agree with?
I actually like reading a range of opinions and views - some posts make you think, some posts challenge your own views, which is a good thing imo, either you want "free speech" or you don't.

@FlakyCritic has sworn at me and managed to have several comments deleted, so don't blame me, I'm just stating my point of view.

As I said I got sworn at, and Flaky Critic must have made some questionable comments although I didn't see them

@PhoebesPony

What about the two trans women who posted on this thread? How do you explain that they were treated courteously? What difference do you see between them and those who are not received as graciously?

Sorry? You were sworn at, or she used swear words?

I asked that too, no response was forthcoming.

I didn't swear at you. I pointed out that you're trolling and goading, and it's more than obvious now after it being explained so many times to you by so many other people in so many different ways that you were never genuine, you didn't post in good faith. You never were genuine. At least you've made that clear now.

You are posing questions (or rather making accusations), which people then answer in some depth...and you totally ignore. Posting one liners and throwaway comments does not represent a meaningful analysis or discussion. Please stop wasting everyone's time.

This is a discussion forum, not so much a place to lob comments and then run.

I think there is a fucking significant difference between someone fucking swearing in a post vs someone saying ‘you fucking X’!

One is a person expressing themselves and only the second is someone swearing at someone.

I think though, someone who claims to be sworn at if they are not being sworn at could be someone who will attribute other negative characteristics to comments made. Like declaring that people are using mocking and vile language when posters are stating factual information and using accurate and precise language. Or fucking swearing. And someone who might make such mischaracterisations based on their personal standards that don’t reflect what is considered reasonable by society (as the mods have to judge by) might also then assign negative generalisations based on very few examples.

If people have already decided that women on here are the worst kind of people, and are determined to state that over and over, and will not post any evidence of their assertions there's really no point in trying to disabuse them.

It only becomes a derail. You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

I think the derail is deliberate.
The comments are definitely not in good faith.
My gut feeling is it's an attempt to stop the good faith comminication between MN and the OP @Seethlaw because I think it challenges the holy narrative.
I've reached my "stop interacting with and giving them the attention they so desperately want" phase.

"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into."

Unfortunately, I think that a lot of TRAs and allies think they've reached their position through reason. They just don't realise that they've fallen into fallacies. Fallacies sound reasonable on the surface, so you think you're being reasonable when you fall for them - and you take anyone who disagrees with you as the one who hasn't thought things through.

"My gut feeling is it's an attempt to stop the good faith comminication between MN and the OP because I think it challenges the holy narrative."

Very possible, yes, and we've already seen the backup tactic when that failed: "Well, you're a trans man, and MN only has it in for trans women". And that's also why the participation and non-rejection of two trans women in this thread is outright ignored, because it cannot be reconciled or explained away at all.

It's sad. I know that it's scary to acknowledge that your beliefs are wrong and based on faulty reasoning. I've had to go through this several times in my life, so really, I know. But I also know that it's much less of a struggle to accept the simple truth than to keep trying to hold a bunch of falsehoods together through artificial means and cognitive dissonance. Ah well.

Emotive reasoning can obscure critical thinking.

And a reminder to posters in general- MN delete for troll hunting.

We did have threads on a semi-ongoing basis that were discussing the best way to deal with community disruptors - might be worth revisiting for those who missed it.

Anyway, good to get the discussion back on track. How's life generally, OP? Are there any feminist issues where you are that maybe the UK wouldn't be aware of?

(Hilarious as it is to see a be-kind-er get stroppy because we're NOT mocking someone!)

Life's... interesting. I'm learning a lot about other kinds of trans people and about the trans lobby, and I'm very unhappy about it all, especially where children and young people are concerned.

Also, I'm confusing the hell out of my sister by calling myself a transmasculine woman :D (We've been having long discussions about all this.)

Honestly, I doubt there would be much here that you wouldn't have had first, because as a rule, we follow the trends a few years behind the US/UK. Maybe things relating to Muslim women's life? We have a very strict separation of church and state, and it's causing some problems for some Muslim women and girls. But I really can't talk much about it; my sister would be the one who would know, not me.

Interesting. Totally non trans related but more on the Muslim women lines, I remember being shocked that in the Paris Olympics, it was fine for athletes from other countries to wear sporting hijabs, but not French athletes. There's a very good player in the WNBA who couldn't play for the French basketball team as they wouldn't allow her hijab as the Olympics counted as a public/civic event, but the others could.

I'm not an activist or an ally for goodness sake, just an ordinary person.I just have an opinion that most of you don't agree with even though I see on many threads the mocking and derision. I'm sorry if it makes you uncomfortable that I don't agree with you on everything and I'm sorry for pointing out things you don't want to hear. You're all accusing me of wanting to derail or that I'm a troll, I'm non of those things. I've been on here quite a while and usually just read and don't comment. You should be able to take someone else's point of view without saying I'm not genuine and all the rest of it because that's just not true. I won't comment any more since it is obviously unwelcome. But I still have a right to my views, and frankly you don't know anything about me.

I'm talking about the way trans women are spoken about in the threads - if non of you can see it you must be blind. That was my point. I look forward to not seeing it anymore if everyone is so convinced it's not happening. That's all I'm going to say.