Thank You from a Trans Lurker

[Seethlaw]

I want to thank you all wonderful people for fighting the good fight despite everything that's been thrown at you. I was an intermittent lurker for years before your arguments finally made it through my barriers. I'm in awe of your courage and tenacity and impossible patience!

I'm a trans man from another European country. I used to be extremely baffled by you GC people. I couldn't help but wonder what on Earth possessed you to go after trans people. I couldn't understand how anyone could think that trans people, that minuscule minority, was any kind of threat to anyone. I was devastated when I learned that one of my favourite authors (not JKR) had "gone TERF".

Again and again, I went back to what I thought were the basics: there is nothing wrong with being trans, and we just want to live our lives in peace.

But stuff happened over the years, some in real life and some on MN where I would lurk once in a while. Coincidentally, it was on the day of the UKSC ruling that I found myself here again, and I was absolutely horrified, and I finally accepted the unacceptable: it was never the TERFs going after the trans. It was the trans going after women's places and even the very definition of the word "woman".

Since then, I've watched the fallout of the SC decision. And my stomach has been sinking as trans person after trans person has come here, trotted out the same old, long-debunked arguments, and hurled abuse and disrespect in the name of "Me, me, me!" And the thing is, I can't even fool myself that they are not "real" trans people.

Back when I transitioned, more than a decade ago, in my country, I searched for trans support groups, and I encountered that very phenomenon of trans people (mostly trans women, though by no means all of them) demanding that the world twist around them. I told myself then that they were not representative of trans people, but the thing is: they are the loudest ones, and the most demanding ones - and as such, the most visible ones. I don't know yet what I can or will do about that, but at least now I'm aware that when people talk about trans people, they might be thinking of such individuals.

Thank you to anyone who read that far, and thank you again for everything you've done. You people rock 👍 !!

Thank you Arabella. I always really appreciate your posts: informative, heartfelt, clear 💐 I’ve learned a great deal from you here.

@ArabellaScott

I'm not sure what this is all about? I mean, obviously, this eunuch business is horrifying and very troubling. Is it because I mentioned the DSM?

they had to refer themselves to Police Scotland.

At the moment Scotland is the gift that keeps on giving!

Not saying that other parts of the UK aren't also doing batshittery, and maybe FWR has a larger % of Scots posters, but there seems to be a bottomless pool of illustraions of right thinking gone wrong.

Or is it that those based in Scotland and posting on FWR are more thorough in their monitering of the impact of the TRA kamikaze campaign method.

It's the straight off the bat bigotry I can't stand. I advise you go and read some of those threads, the school one in particular. It's really vile and there are plenty more threads where the same views are aired which gives everyone else the push to pile on too. It's sickening. It's like oh they're trans so they're perverts, seeking access to children, going to push their views onto students. I cannot believe that good schools are going to hire such people. It's getting to the point where everyone on here has an objection to a trans person doing all sorts of jobs, activities etc. Soon they'll be asked to stay behind closed doors. But yes just pick any thread and you'll see the outright bigotry and mocking and disdain posters have got trans folk. I think you would find it uncomfortable and upsetting reading.I wanted to learn more about it all but I won't be engaging in this forum anymore because the transphobia is rampant and I don't want to have all the shit in my brain. I will my thoughts and energy into trying to make things better for trans people instead.
I wish you both the best in life I really do. And I'm sorry there is such disgusting stuff written on here.

And by the way I'm not putting down mental illness, I suffer depression myself, it's the demeaning way the posters are saying trans is a mental illness. I can assure you it's not said in any supportive or helpful way, it's said in a nasty mocking way.
Anyway I'm leaving this forum now, so hugely disappointing the way everyone has jumped on the lets hate trans folk bandwagon.

But I think this thread showed that if everyone approaches discussion with respectful attitudes, a good conversation can be had.

Unfortunately on other threads the drive by attacks get people's backs up which is not constructive.

Personally I've found this thread very interesting with much to think about.

Anyway I'm leaving this forum now, so hugely disappointing the way everyone has jumped on the lets hate trans folk bandwagon.

You're dismissing the views of many many reasonable GC posters who have never once called trans people names or mocked anything other than dishonesty. I can't tell if you really think some posts on another thread reflect everyone, or you haven't fully understood the history of the discussion that's been going on in here for a decade, or you are for some reason desperate to tell trans people they are unilaterally hated but it's not the case.

It's incredibly frustrating to be told you think something you simply don't. It's not compatible with promoting good mental health. I'm tired of it.

@PhoebesPony

Presumably you won't see this if you're leaving, but just in case...

" I advise you go and read some of those threads, the school one in particular."

I try to read almost every thread on here these days. Do I detect some outright transphobia in some comments? Yes. Are those comments in the majority? Hell no. So I just shrug and ignore them.

"It's getting to the point where everyone on here has an objection to a trans person doing all sorts of jobs, activities etc"

As I explained in a previous post: blame the TRAs. They are the ones who removed so many safeguarding practices around women and children, that now people have to put up their own personal safeguarding limits. Do they sometimes go too far? Yes. Do I blame them? No, because I understand it comes from a place of fear for their children or themselves.

"I think you would find it uncomfortable and upsetting reading."

I have read them - and I'm fine.

" I will my thoughts and energy into trying to make things better for trans people instead."

Will that involve making things worse (or attempting to) for women? Because as a trans person, that would really bother me.

"it's the demeaning way the posters are saying trans is a mental illness."

I wonder: what do you think it is, if not a weird mental disorder? I mean, it's literally "all in the head"...

@Seethlaw just wanted to say thanks for starting this thread and for being so open to answering questions. I haven't contributed but I have read it all and it's been really interesting - please stick around on FWR if you can. Wishing you continued health and happiness in your life.

I really appreciate it that you clearly have alot of empathy for trans people and I imagine that when you see posts about us on here that are distressing it's likely similiar to how I feel when I see that TRAs have said things like 'hang terfs' and have threatened women with rape and stuff like that. And for sure, I've read things on here that I've also found distressing, I can't help that I feel as if I'd be lumped in with the likes of Isla Bryson just for being a TW, despite being a SA survivor and that I'd have no intention of hurting anyone. But I also understand that many GC women have been through alot because of TRAs and are extremely protective of their space to say what they have to say. Maybe some here just hate us because they're hateful, but most GCs are not.

I really don't know what the solution is anymore. Unlike most trans people in the UK, I accepted and supported the ruling because I just wanted the 'debate' to stop, the majority of people (women, children and trans people) who could be and have been affected by everything that has been happening are not activists, likely aren't even proactively engaging in the discourse at all and are just trying to live their life. We need a reset.

The sad fact is, I think it's just getting worse and I don't know the answer. I think there is more understanding to be found, I think TRAs need to quiet down and listen and realise the damage they've done not just to the rights of women, but to us also: the people they apparently want to protect.

I hope that you don't feel like you've been piled on here, I do really appreciate that you clearly care about us much like I do care about the women in my life and I wouldn't want them to feel unsafe because of the actions of destructive TRAs if they were potentially to voice concerns they have.

It is a little presumptuous to assume what a transgender person would think about those threads and posts when the OP has said many times that they don't agree. Virtue signalling a bit there from @PhoebesPony

Which I think has been a major issue, for example, from the SNP.

Also @VanishingVision and @TroubledWatersTW have been really interesting on this thread.

They have posted their views eloquently and thought-provokingly, riding a white horse in to bat for them when they clearly don't need people making assumptions about how they SHOULD feel is a bit patronising.

Bienvenue et merci bcp @Seethlaw and the other delurking trans posters on this thread. It's been an interesting read and good to hear voices like yours.

@Seethlaw has there been much coverage of the UKSC judgment in France? I wonder what the reaction has been like. You will have seen in the UK it has been quite polarised.

@VanishingVision

Don't lose hope yet. Give it a few months for things to calm down a little. You're right in the middle of the storm right now, but it won't last. Keep strong!

I suppose my post sounded rather defeatist 🤣 it wasn't supposed to!

No, the coverage has been minimal. I didn't hear anything about it on the national TV news programme I watch every day. A quick research right now tells me that the ruling itself was covered with a single article in all the main internet news sources, as well as the FA's decision to exclude trans women from women's football, but that's about it.

Thing is, trans rights are not a hot issue at all in France. Sex is already defined as the sex observed at birth in law. We don't have anything like the GRA. Very few people go through the justice procedure to obtain a legal sex change. And very importantly, there's no single, massive, ultra-powerful organisation like Stonewall here. So I'm sure we have TRAs as extremist as yours can be, but they are nowhere as numerous, and they have no power whatsoever.

Thanks @Seethlaw that's really interesting. So I assume you don't have queues of actors wringing their hands and repeating "TWAW" and signing letters announcing their allyship either? It's both fascinating and terrifying how two close countries can have taken different paths on the issue. I think the biggest impact in the UK has been how so many public bodies have totally captured and the insidious impact it's had on women's rights.

This thread is so interesting.

Something that I noticed from the SCR and the protests that followed is the definition of "Trans" has widely expanded from when the EA was written in 2010.

Before that I think most peopel were comfortable with a TG woman as someone who has been assessed and participated in therapy, part of which is they will never be the sex that they wish to be, but they won't be the sex they were born as. In that assessment there would obviously be some risk assessment about whether they are a danger to women, but with self-ID that goes out the window.

I think the TG community needs to start being exclusive about what characteristics do need protection and which don't. Personally I think inclusion in sports is where the tide started to turn from mild eyebrow raising to full on critique. Laurel Hubbard should never have been allowed to participate in the weightlifting.

" So I assume you don't have queues of actors wringing their hands and repeating "TWAW" and signing letters announcing their allyship either?"

No. There's no consensus on "TWAW" to begin with. There's no Stonewall here to silence feminists with a "No Debate", so debate they do. And the cinema world here is being dogged down by affairs about the sexual abuse of young and vulnerable actresses, so I don't think they would want to get involved in something potentially so controversial.

That said, I would be surprised if nobody said anything about it at the next Cannes festival. After all, "Emilia Perez" was only last year. Maybe then there'll be a little "Les femmes trans sont des femmes" trend, but it would die down really quickly as quite frankly, nobody cares about trans people that much.

@Seethlaw , sorry if i missed this being asked before, but what do you think about the fact that transmen were basically ignored in the debate until the Supreme Court ruling and are now being used as a kind of 'gotcha' by people who ignored their needs before?

"I think the TG community needs to start being exclusive about what characteristics do need protection and which don't."

Do you mean, exclusivity as to who can call themselves trans or not? Well then, obviously, I know nothing about the UK trans community, but if it's in any way similar to here, then that's never gonna happen. The inclusivity is a feature, not a bug. There are words, slurs, to designate anyone who would put limitations on who can call themselves trans or not.

Before that I think most peopel were comfortable with a TG woman as someone who has been assessed and participated in therapy, part of which is they will never be the sex that they wish to be, but they won't be the sex they were born as. In that assessment there would obviously be some risk assessment about whether they are a danger to women, but with self-ID that goes out the window.

There has never been any risk assessment in the GRA. Before surgery and medication there are assessments to make sure the patient understands the implications to themselves, but the potential harms to anyone else is not assessed.

I'm entirely unsurprised.

When I first looked for support groups, I found a group which had been originally created by a trans man, for trans men. I never asked what happened, but I can easily imagine it was some version of #BeKind, and when I joined, it only retained a trans man as president, with trans women at all other posts, and trans women dominating the discussion during meetings. (Note that I'm not saying that all trans women were dominating: some were very much quiet and discreet.)

I mentioned in another post that we all bring our socialisation to our transition, with the result that the same social relationships are reproduced: trans women tend to take up all the room and think only of themselves, while trans men tend to step back quietly.

I remember a picnic we had organised. Several trans men came, and only one trans woman. She left quickly. I literally felt like a heavy blanket had been lifted from us, and suddenly we could speak freely. That was when I realised just how stifled we felt in their company.

So yeah, that trans men were forgotten all along (to the point of potentially sacrificing their maternity rights!), only to be remembered suddenly when useful as a gotcha, doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

Also, I'd like to know where they find all those 6ft tall, muscly, bearded trans men 😂

So would I!

Thank you, I'm not surprised re your picnic, loudest voices in the room etc.

I think I'd feel pretty furious that I was ignored only to be wheeled out as an afterthought, but your tone is very measured as it has been all along, and I think as you implied, we know why. Thanks for your reply. I'm glad you started this thread.

The whole ‘but what are you gonna do about the 6ft tall, burly bearded transmen in your lavatories?’ cracks me up - are they really trying to convince us that transmen (female) are more of a danger than transwomen (male) when as far as I can recall no UK transman has ever been convicted of murder and only a handful have been convicted of a sex crime? And that’s usually of the sex-by-deception variety which is obviously still a completely unacceptable violation of their partner’s consent but not a behaviour we need to fear in a public lavatory (unlike all the transwomen convicted of violent sex crimes/ sex crimes against children etc).

That the most high profile transman in the world right now is the teeny-tiny Elliot Page is also somewhat inconvenient for the ‘Oooh, but scary transmen’ argument!