Thank You from a Trans Lurker

[Seethlaw]

I want to thank you all wonderful people for fighting the good fight despite everything that's been thrown at you. I was an intermittent lurker for years before your arguments finally made it through my barriers. I'm in awe of your courage and tenacity and impossible patience!

I'm a trans man from another European country. I used to be extremely baffled by you GC people. I couldn't help but wonder what on Earth possessed you to go after trans people. I couldn't understand how anyone could think that trans people, that minuscule minority, was any kind of threat to anyone. I was devastated when I learned that one of my favourite authors (not JKR) had "gone TERF".

Again and again, I went back to what I thought were the basics: there is nothing wrong with being trans, and we just want to live our lives in peace.

But stuff happened over the years, some in real life and some on MN where I would lurk once in a while. Coincidentally, it was on the day of the UKSC ruling that I found myself here again, and I was absolutely horrified, and I finally accepted the unacceptable: it was never the TERFs going after the trans. It was the trans going after women's places and even the very definition of the word "woman".

Since then, I've watched the fallout of the SC decision. And my stomach has been sinking as trans person after trans person has come here, trotted out the same old, long-debunked arguments, and hurled abuse and disrespect in the name of "Me, me, me!" And the thing is, I can't even fool myself that they are not "real" trans people.

Back when I transitioned, more than a decade ago, in my country, I searched for trans support groups, and I encountered that very phenomenon of trans people (mostly trans women, though by no means all of them) demanding that the world twist around them. I told myself then that they were not representative of trans people, but the thing is: they are the loudest ones, and the most demanding ones - and as such, the most visible ones. I don't know yet what I can or will do about that, but at least now I'm aware that when people talk about trans people, they might be thinking of such individuals.

Thank you to anyone who read that far, and thank you again for everything you've done. You people rock 👍 !!

Another long-time trans lurker (TW) here! Created an account to post. I wanted to echo the sentiments of @Seethlaw in the OP. I'm amused at the thought that there are so many other "nuanced" trans people lurking mumsnet. @changedusernameforthis1 and @VanishingVision in this thread and also that thread by @13J a few weeks ago. There are dozens of us 😂

It's tricky because the 'trans side' of all the debate is dominated by TRA-types, which has had to be met with force from the 'GC side' to fight back. The net result as someone who feels much more nuanced about things is feeling very lost and homeless in the debate. "My side" doesn't represent me or my views at all, and the "other side" can come across very hostile. It's nice to read threads like this one. I'm very aware that posters on mumsnet could be my colleagues or my neighbours, and I really sincerely want to build a society that works for everyone. It's nice to see that posters here do feel the same way.

"Honestly, it doesn't go any further than the body for me. My internal map of my body is that of a male body: large shoulders, flat chest, narrow hips, penis and testicles. To be clear: it's not what I want; it's what I feel." - Seethlaw

I've found this discussion about the feelings behind gender dysphoria very interesting, and I very much echo Seethlaw's perceptive on it. So +1 for people feeling the same way. For me I'd go as far as to say my dysphoria is entirely related to my physical body. It's not social for me at all: I don't care if people view me or refer to me as a man or a woman, it doesn't upset me in any way. As a TW I kind of have the opposite to 'phantom limb', in the sense that I feel I have an extra body part that feels "alien". Throughout my whole life I've always been repulsed by seeing or feeling it. I know intellectually that it's a normal part for a male to have, but ever since I was young child (honestly as long as I can remember) it's always just been a cause of revulsion. I feel in particular this has been devastating to my hopes of finding a partner, as I know that "as a man" I'd be expected to use it.

For me, ironically, it was the lack of any strong conviction that I'm "a woman trapped in a man's body" or anything like that that held me back from transition until adulthood. I used to think that I couldn't possibly have gender dysphoria because I didn't have a sense of "being a woman". Ironically, all those typical phrases you hear about 'gendered souls' put me off transition! I wasn't sure what to make of my feelings about my body. I knew they were related to being trans, but I just thought I wasn't. I was raised in a firmly GC household which I think strongly influenced all of this.

I finally "gave in" at some point and experimented with transition and it was a totally unexpected night-and-day transformation for me. Similar to what Seethlaw said, it suddenly felt that I'd been 'lying' or 'acting' my whole life. The way I behave, speak, and interact with others changed significantly; I'd been subconsciously "performing masculinity" unaware that I'd made myself a caricature of a man. It truly feels that transition has let me "be myself" and many people (including GC family members) have remarked that I very much come across "as a woman" now. This isn't from a desire to "perform feminity" or anything of the sort; like I say I honestly don't mind being referred to as a man. So I think retrospectively I can see why people describe it as "being a woman trapped in a man's body" or a "gendered soul" but those descriptions were completely unhelpful to my understanding of it pre-transition. I can totally see why people don't "get it"; I didn't - and I'm trans!

Anyway, I hope these ramblings are of interest to some. I'd be curious if any of what I've put resonates with you OP, certainly your experiences resonate with some of mine.

@IwantToRetire

"Not saying it is the same, but for instance many people continue to see themselves as they were when young, and only when looking in a mirror do they realise that they are older."

That's funny to me, because I have the opposite problem: I know I'm getting on, and have an aging self-image "inside", but I happen to look much younger than I am, so I often have a jolt of surprise when I see myself in a mirror :D

"And in the examples I gave from another thread of women erasing the most female part of themselves so as not be objectified, is this just the other side of the same thing? That in this society, men by and large are more likely to be listened to, and in the street less likely to be thought an easy prey. So is it that the male persona is a refuge from the vulnerable actual female body."

I doubt the little kid that I was was aware of such things. I'm not saying it's impossible. Maybe I was told, "You can't do that because you're a girl," and decided to be a boy instead; that's always a possibility. But if that's what happened, then it happened very very early on, and didn't have to do with having an adult vulnerable female body.

"Please note! I am not a medical practioner. But that could your childhood experience be dyspraxia - which I now see is called Developmental co-ordination disorder (DCD)."

Thank you for the hint! I'll look into it.

"The net result as someone who feels much more nuanced about things is feeling very lost and homeless in the debate."

Yup. I've been wondering what I'd do if a similar situation arose in France, and honestly, it's hard! Again and again, I come back to, "I'd have to join/create a third way," but that's terrifying, because I know that such a group would be hounded by the trans activists, and we can all see how far they go in hounding women.

"As a TW I kind of have the opposite to 'phantom limb', in the sense that I feel I have an extra body part that feels "alien". Throughout my whole life I've always been repulsed by seeing or feeling it."

I'm lucky: I never felt repulsed by my breasts. But they felt alien, yes. They didn't belong.

" I used to think that I couldn't possibly have gender dysphoria because I didn't have a sense of "being a woman". Ironically, all those typical phrases you hear about 'gendered souls' put me off transition!"

Oh, that's interesting!

"it suddenly felt that I'd been 'lying' or 'acting' my whole life. The way I behave, speak, and interact with others changed significantly; I'd been subconsciously "performing masculinity" unaware that I'd made myself a caricature of a man"

Yup. I use the metaphor of the puppeteer: I was a male puppeteer hiding backstage and controlling a female puppet on stage.

" like I say I honestly don't mind being referred to as a man"

I do mind when people refer to me as a woman, but only insofar as it makes me feel guilty, thinking I didn't make enough of an effort to present as male. But... I think I should let go of that? 🤔 What does it matter, after all?

" I'd be curious if any of what I've put resonates with you OP,"

Absolutely! Thanks for sharing!

@Seethlaw

"Yup. I've been wondering what I'd do if a similar situation arose in France, and honestly, it's hard! Again and again, I come back to, "I'd have to join/create a third way," but that's terrifying, because I know that such a group would be hounded by the trans activists, and we can all see how far they go in hounding women."

Absolutely. Fundamentally as a person I'm a follower not a leader. It's difficult to feel like I've got no one to get behind, and I'm not the one to take the risk. But I guess if no one does then the general populace will believe TRAs represent us all. I actually wrote to my MP recently regarding the current situation, trying to put the case that we're not all in agreement with the TRAs. It's the first time I've ever done anything like that in my life.

I mostly just don't want gender to be a big deal in my life. I can't get excited or passionate about it. I transitioned to help alleviate a health problem, I feel that's working great, so I just want to quietly move on. Some seem to make it a big deal, good for them, but it's not how I see it.

"I'm lucky: I never felt repulsed by my breasts. But they felt alien, yes. They didn't belong."

Interesting, yeah! For me pre-transition I never actually felt I was 'missing' breasts, but as soon as I started wearing bras, I started feeling very naked and incomplete whenever I would take them off. I find breasts give a unique sense of "self confidence" that I lacked before?

"Yup. I use the metaphor of the puppeteer: I was a male puppeteer hiding backstage and controlling a female puppet on stage."

Great metaphor 😀

"I do mind when people refer to me as a woman, but only insofar as it makes me feel guilty, thinking I didn't make enough of an effort to present as male. But... I think I should let go of that? 🤔 What does it matter, after all?"

Well, yes quite. People who've known me from before 'misgender' me sometimes, and that is totally fine for me. I've never actually had a stranger 'misgender' me, but I think if they ever did I'd take it that my makeup wasn't very good that day or something! I do actively try to "pass", but only to avoid confrontation; I wouldn't want someone to think I'm a TRA or something, and I feel it's easier if I don't draw attention to myself. In practice this just means I'm doing my makeup and hair in a certain way that I feel helps with passing. I don't do it if I'm not going out for the day, so clearly I'm doing it for others, not myself. If I knew there would be no conflict, then I have no qualms with someone knowing I am trans, nor being 'visibly' trans. Maybe one day we will live in a society that accepting 😊

Thank you too for posting @TroubledWatersTW

I'll be honest and say I previously assumed most gender dysphoria, when being trans was a bodily problem and meant wanting to be the opposite sex, I was entirely sympathetic to. It is really interesting hearing your accounts.

If it had been left as that I think we wouldn't be where we are today.

And then self-id started and then I changed to thinking that many transgender people were actually motivated by (often unwittingly) sexist stereotypes. (Or sexual extremes...)
And I've had to solidify my position, which would previously have been largely based on vibes, into something more clear-cut and workable. The aim with SS spaces is still dignity and safety, so to reduce the risk of harm. I don't know how we discern the real harmless people from anyone else of that sex. And we can see how hard it is to even describe the feelings we would base that on - so I can see how GRCs came about, as wishy washy as they are ("living as a woman", etc.)

And I agree that gender actually shouldn't factor into most instances of how we deal with others. But sex does, and where it matters, it matters, so it's hard to square the circle.

@TroubledWatersTW

"I actually wrote to my MP recently regarding the current situation, trying to put the case that we're not all in agreement with the TRAs. It's the first time I've ever done anything like that in my life."

Hey, that's a start!

"I mostly just don't want gender to be a big deal in my life. I can't get excited or passionate about it. I transitioned to help alleviate a health problem, I feel that's working great, so I just want to quietly move on. Some seem to make it a big deal, good for them, but it's not how I see it."

Amen! For me, it was obviously a big issue while I was transitioning, but after that, it just became another thing in my life like so many others, not some kind of big deal to wrap my life around.

" I find breasts give a unique sense of "self confidence" that I lacked before?"

Makes sense to me. I have zero doubt I'd feel a similar kind of self-confidence if I had a penis (I'm not interested in getting that surgery considering how experimental it still is.)

"I feel it's easier if I don't draw attention to myself"

Right!? That's, like, the first rule of passing and/or being accepted: don't draw attention to yourself.

"I'm doing my makeup and hair in a certain way that I feel helps with passing."

There are absolutely better ways than others. Back when I was in support groups, I could clearly see a difference in passing between the different styles of dressing, make-up and hair-styling.

" If I knew there would be no conflict, then I have no qualms with someone knowing I am trans, nor being 'visibly' trans. Maybe one day we will live in a society that accepting"

I personally feel like I'm quite lucky already. The people who know I'm trans don't seem to care. The people who figure it out never have any kind of horrible reaction. Those who seem to take me for a bearded woman are nice too - or maybe they think I'm an unshaved trans woman and they are being respectful? Either way, they've never given me any trouble. Of course, I also think it's easier for me, being a trans man, and being smaller than trans women tend to be, so I don't look as impressive and I don't stand out as much as they can. And of course too, I'm not in the UK, where the TRAs have gone too far and entirely polarised the situation.

@potpourree

"Thank you too for posting"

Thanks. I've been tempted to post for a long time, but honestly been quite nervous about it. I don't want to come across as invading this space or anything like that.

"... and meant wanting to be the opposite sex, I was entirely sympathetic to. It is really interesting hearing your accounts."

Thanks 😊

Yes, it's a story I see time and again in mumsnet posts; initially sympathetic to those struggling, but then encounter the TRA-types and harden stance. I feel TRAs have done us a great disservice.

"The aim with SS spaces is still dignity and safety, so to reduce the risk of harm."

Absolutely. When I read this recent SC judgement, I was actually quite optimistic!

One thing I've personally been worried about is hospital changing rooms; I periodically need a procedure as an out patient at hospital (not trans related) that involves getting changed. They have communal single-sex changing rooms with cubicles. This next time will be my first time having this procedure since transition. I was planning to ring up and explain that I'm trans. Prior to the ruling I was worried the response would be "we're trans inclusive; just use the women's changing room" which I personally would feel incredibly guilty and nervous about, in case I intimidated anyone. Based on the ruling, I thought the "common-sense" outcome would be that there would need to be some provision for trans people, so I assumed they would say "yep, we will arrange a separate room for you to changed in". I'd be totally okay with that. My new fear based on statements by the equalities minister and EHRC is that they will say "you have to use the men's changing room", which I fear will cause a scene. I do not look like a man, and, from experience, most people in the changing room will be in their 80s and would find my presence very confusing or even distressing.

I really hope a sensible solution does shine through. I don't feel it's rocket science! I feel incredibly guilty and selfish about requiring "special treatment" or whatever, but it really doesn't have to be anything fancy or purpose-built, surely I can get changed out of the way in some side room somewhere? Hopefully common sense does prevail.

"And I agree that gender actually shouldn't factor into most instances of how we deal with others. But sex does, and where it matters, it matters, so it's hard to square the circle."

Personally, I don't use women's (or indeed men's!) single sex spaces, even before the ruling. It is really difficult, sometimes you really do need to pee! I plan my life around toilets I know I can use, and try to avoid drinking too much when I'm out. My hope is the ruling implies more third-spaces are needed, from experience there are never enough around.

I personally hope it does suffice to keep things more-or-less as they now stand, saying it is lawful to exclude people in proportionate circumstances based on sex, but without trying to move to some means of enforcing this. I've seen suggestions about preventing trans people from updating their sex on their IDs, but I'd really really prefer if we don't go down that route. I'd suggest we just make it an offence to lie about sex in certain, very specific, situations (e.g. joining a sports team). The CPS has already made clear it'd be a potential offence to lie about sex before having sexual relations with someone. I think that would let trans people like me avoid such situations if we want to, whilst also providing a deterrent to those who would chance it.

@Seethlaw

"For me, it was obviously a big issue while I was transitioning, but after that, it just became another thing in my life like so many others, not some kind of big deal to wrap my life around."

Seems like we see eye to eye on this, it's nice to not feel alone! Thanks again for doing your post 😊

"Makes sense to me. I have zero doubt I'd feel a similar kind of self-confidence if I had a penis (I'm not interested in getting that surgery considering how experimental it still is.)"

Ah yes, very sorry to hear that! My neighbour asked if I thought it was easier for TMs or TWs overall. I said I think socially TMs have the easier time, but medically TWs probably have it easier. Unfortunately, in the UK the waiting time for TW GRS surgery is on the order of 10 years 😭. Hopefully I get there some day! Or save up to go private 🙃

"I personally feel like I'm quite lucky already. The people who know I'm trans don't seem to care. The people who figure it out never have any kind of horrible reaction. Those who seem to take me for a bearded woman are nice too - or maybe they think I'm an unshaved trans woman and they are being respectful? Either way, they've never given me any trouble. Of course, I also think it's easier for me, being a trans man, and being smaller than trans women tend to be, so I don't look as impressive and I don't stand out as much as they can. And of course too, I'm not in the UK, where the TRAs have gone too far and entirely polarised the situation."

Glad to hear it! I also have not yet had a negative reaction or situation too, but close friends have. It really does all seem to come down to passing, which is terribly unfair, but I guess that's life. I doubt doubt that those friends are any less sincere than I am, I just happen to look slightly more the part.

As I say, I hope one day the world can fit us in however we look 😊

@TroubledWatersTW

"I feel incredibly guilty and selfish about requiring "special treatment" or whatever, but it really doesn't have to be anything fancy or purpose-built, surely I can get changed out of the way in some side room somewhere? "

Honestly, I would tell them exactly that: "Could I use a side room somewhere?" I've found that often, in cases like this where it's not clear what should be done or what someone would be happy with, people are very relieved when you give them a workable solution right away.

"Unfortunately, in the UK the waiting time for TW GRS surgery is on the order of 10 years 😭. Hopefully I get there some day! Or save up to go private 🙃"

10 years! That's a lot. I hope you manage to gather the funds to go private.

If you are seriously considering genital surgery, you are far braver, or perhaps far more foolhardy, than me. I strongly suggest you look very hard at what it actually involves, preferably without your trans specs on, and at how easily it can have very poor results. Having read what the surgeons do, I am astonished that anyone thinks it is in any way ethical.

Meanwhile over on the thread about a teacher possibly being trans, trans people are being called mentally ill and worse, and that they would remove their child from the school. So however nice people might be being to you on this thread don't kid yourself that that is how a lot of people on here feel. It can be incredibly transphobic.

OP it sounds like where you are living you're not coming up against many problems at all and that it's all been relatively easy for you so you can afford to be nice and reasonable etc because you're not really having to struggle with other people's view of you. Things feel different here for trans people. I'm really glad you can live your life in peace, it would be nice if others could too.

I was beginning to see some of the GC's points of view on a lot of things but now I just feel disgusted that people are egging each other on like this against a group of people.

Gender Dysphoria is found in the DSM-5, DSM meaning "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders". So it's a disorder. Of the mind. I had to go to a psychiatrist (a specialist in mental illnesses) to be diagnosed with it. People are right about that: it's a mental illness.

As for removing the child from the school: I understand the urge, for at least two reasons:

1. For obvious reasons, I would want to know which of my kid's teachers are male. "Mx" doesn't tell me that - in fact, it deliberately hides that - and if on top of that, my kid says that the teacher looks male, then I'm going to have questions. And from there, I'm going to wonder if the school has my child's best interest at heart.
2. In the current atmosphere in the UK, you can bet I'd be worried whether male-looking Mx is a TRA or not.

So do I wish people would not jump the gun? Yes, of course. But do I understand why they might? Yes, of course too.

TRAs are the ones to blame for this, by the way. They are the ones who insisted on removing legal and societal safeguarding measures around women and children. So now people have to put up their own safeguarding measures around themselves and their children. I don't blame them.

I don't know how schools square safeguarding policies, and telling children their female teacher is a man/vice versa, or has no sex.

You know why I can live my life in peace? Because I don't ask for the sky. Because I don't throw tantrums whenever someone tells me, "No, I can't do that." Because I accept that other people have rights, and that my own rights can't trump theirs.

Do you know that here we don't have anything like the GRA? We don't have GRCs. To change our official sex, we have to go through the justice system. It's a long and expensive procedure. And it's only pretty recently that the judges were told that they couldn't ask for people to have had surgery or any sort of medical treatment to accept their requests.

Trans people in the UK have MORE rights than in most countries in the world. More, not less. Think about that.

"I was beginning to see some of the GC's points of view on a lot of things but now I just feel disgusted that people are egging each other on like this against a group of people."

Do you believe that anyone can just ask for anything and obtain it?

@Seethlaw - I could just hug you. Thank you for being so completely reasonable. It must drive you barmy as a transman seeing the ridiculous demands from some of the lunatic TRA made in the name of 'your community'.

And yes, @PhoebesPony ! Trans people in the U.K. have far more rights and are far more protected under the law than in so, so many other countries. Which is a good thing - having legal recourse when facing descrimination is great.

In fact, they have more protection than women, because hate crime legislation doesn't include misogyny but does include transphobia. People are absolutely vile about women and the police don't do a thing. Someone 'misgenders' a TRA on Twitter and the police get called.

There were a several serial abusers of the law in that particular tactic to silence GC women that spring to mind. There was even the lunatic from Mermaids (I think) who tried to prosecute transwoman Miranda Yardley for transphobia.

Absolutely, I am trying to be as rational and informed about it as I can be. I have spoken to people in real life who have had severe complications, and have watched plenty of YouTube content by regretters. I take it seriously and listen to what they say. Obviously the analytical rational part of my brain knows it's an insane risk to take, but it just doesn't change how I feel. As I mentioned, the feelings have been with me my whole life, since young childhood. I'm just crossing my fingers it goes well. Even many of the 'bad' outcomes I've heard feel like an acceptable improvement to the status quo. It is what it is.

(as an aside can I just say I love your username! Every time I've seen it I always thought it was so witty 😆)

I understand what you mean Phoebe, and I see you've been trying to protect trans people in this thread. I don't think it has to be black and white though, I personally think it's all very nuanced. I do think GC people cross the line sometimes, just as trans people cross the line sometimes. I do find some posts I read on mumsnet distressing, but so too do I sometimes find posts I read on trans sites distressing. Some people crossing the line doesn't automatically mean that others on the same "side" are making incorrect points.

Members of my own family were very strongly GC prior to learning of my gender dysphoria. They said some downright nasty things behind closed doors, I know what happens. But they also made some sensible points. Both can coexist.

I really just hope in the long run the heat can be taken out of the debates and that a reasonable rational debate can ensue. I don't like viewing anyone as an enemy. Trans and GC people share this country and I really hope we can make it work for everyone. There will always be people who think we're too far one way or the other. That's life though.

I'd like a world in which women have a reasonable sensible set of protections, they make up half the population for goodness sake! I'd also like trans people to have space in society to quietly get on with their life post transition if they so choose. Transition itself is inherently a trade off, it comes at a cost: socially, medically, legally, financially. It brings big benefits for some, I'll attest to that, but I knew there would be significant downsides. I just hope we can keep it balanced.

Its almost impossible to find the nuance when safeguarding relies on being clear about sex, and an influencial group of people are trying their best to hide theirs.

It's also irrelevant how 'nicely' women ask frankly. We've been called all the names and had all the death threats, for several years now. After that, people chiding us for manners is just risible.

I'm here for child safeguarding and protecting women's rights, I'm not here to make nice. It doesn't bloody matter.

Teenage girls are having their healthy breasts removed, ffs. Women are being raped. And we're to be polite about it? Fuck that.

In some ways PhoebesPony, it's sad that you seem to see mental illness as a slur. Gender dysphoria must surely be a mental illness. Just as anorexia is. Or anything else where the reality of your physical body doesn't match your thoughts. That's not something to be ashamed of. But it is something that might concern parents of children being taught by the person concerned. Because a parent's primary duty is to their child and having a child and trying to keep them safe and happy is the most important thing in the world. So even if there is no cause for concern in reality, a parent (well, a good loving one) is always going to end up worrying.

Couldn’t agree with you more

We can talk about the DSM.

We then should also talk about WPATH, who were instrumental in reclassifying gender dysphoria.

You know what else WPATH promote?

Eunuchs. Affirming eunuch gender.

When NHS Scotland added WPATH's latest Standards of Care to their website, and realised they contained a link to 'the eunuch archive', a site that includes fantasies of CSA, they had to refer themselves to Police Scotland.

Because NHS Scotland had hosted a link to CSA material.

We are only seeing the tip of the iceberg. And it is fucking murky.

NHS England still link to WPATH's Standards of Care, by the way.

The one with the eunuchs.

Here:

https://ncth.nhs.uk/other-gp-guidance/