Thank You from a Trans Lurker

[Seethlaw]

I want to thank you all wonderful people for fighting the good fight despite everything that's been thrown at you. I was an intermittent lurker for years before your arguments finally made it through my barriers. I'm in awe of your courage and tenacity and impossible patience!

I'm a trans man from another European country. I used to be extremely baffled by you GC people. I couldn't help but wonder what on Earth possessed you to go after trans people. I couldn't understand how anyone could think that trans people, that minuscule minority, was any kind of threat to anyone. I was devastated when I learned that one of my favourite authors (not JKR) had "gone TERF".

Again and again, I went back to what I thought were the basics: there is nothing wrong with being trans, and we just want to live our lives in peace.

But stuff happened over the years, some in real life and some on MN where I would lurk once in a while. Coincidentally, it was on the day of the UKSC ruling that I found myself here again, and I was absolutely horrified, and I finally accepted the unacceptable: it was never the TERFs going after the trans. It was the trans going after women's places and even the very definition of the word "woman".

Since then, I've watched the fallout of the SC decision. And my stomach has been sinking as trans person after trans person has come here, trotted out the same old, long-debunked arguments, and hurled abuse and disrespect in the name of "Me, me, me!" And the thing is, I can't even fool myself that they are not "real" trans people.

Back when I transitioned, more than a decade ago, in my country, I searched for trans support groups, and I encountered that very phenomenon of trans people (mostly trans women, though by no means all of them) demanding that the world twist around them. I told myself then that they were not representative of trans people, but the thing is: they are the loudest ones, and the most demanding ones - and as such, the most visible ones. I don't know yet what I can or will do about that, but at least now I'm aware that when people talk about trans people, they might be thinking of such individuals.

Thank you to anyone who read that far, and thank you again for everything you've done. You people rock 👍 !!

"I think I'd feel pretty furious that I was ignored only to be wheeled out as an afterthought"

They do. I've seen a vent by a trans man on that topic on the uk transgender reddit.

(I just went to take a look, and I'm dying of laughter: they have a thread entitled, "Why are TERFs so well organised compared to us?" They offer plenty of silly reasons, but not one of them gets to the heart of the matter: you guys are WOMEN. Women know how to organise stuff. If they let trans men lead, they would immediately see the difference. Just saying, in case a TRA comes around.)

Well, see, the thing is you're not supposed to clock the trans man. You're supposed to be scared of him because you think he's a man. At which point I guess he's supposed to tell you, "This is what you get for pushing for transphobic laws" or something.

Except you'll likely clock him.

And even if you don't, trans men don't typically enjoy scaring women.

"That the most high profile transman in the world right now is the teeny-tiny Elliot Page is also somewhat inconvenient for the ‘Oooh, but scary transmen’ argument!"

Yeah 😂

@Seethlaw and friends. I'm just popping in to say I am following the conversations on this thread and am so pleased that you feel able to speak out. Please stick around and contribute to the forum or lurk as you see fit. It is of great value to have you here.
I can't speak for a single other person on the forum (none of us can!) but I personally feel that we are fighting an existential battle for the sex-class of women and for the safeguarding of children against a dangerous, entitled and misogynistic male-rights movement. If you are not in support of this male-rights movement, then our anger and humour is not being directed against you. If you read something that seems hurtful, please look at the activist that it is aimed at and you will find that they have said or done something against women's or children's interests. In particular, if the activist is a transwomen then remember that, in the context of the fight for women's sex based rights, to us they are members of the male sex-class. The criticism is aimed at them as males (not as transwomen). We are expressing anger at male oppression; this is not the same as transphobia. That's not to say lines don't get crossed sometimes, but part of any debate is to try to find where the lines should be drawn. It's just my personal view, but I hope it does make sense.

Mais on n’est pas des mecs, @Seethlaw !

Yes, sorry for the slight derail. I was still quite angry at Phoebe berating this board for being intemperate/suggesting our tone was nasty. And responding to discussion of mental health issues and classifiction of dysphoria.

'Some people being rude' is clearly not even slightly equivalent to CSA or abuse, and that is why many of us are here and concerned about various aspects of gender activism - and that was what set me off. Phoebe's attitude strikes me as uncomfortably similar to Lucy Powell's.

There are long and quite complicated histories to some of the issues and I appreciate they sound quite bizarre if one isn't aware. WPATH themselves are quite the story.

Re France, it's good to hear more about the situation there.

Feminists have been violently attacked by trans activists, had the usual death threats, etc:

https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/w/anti-prostitution-group-protest-attacked-in-paris

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5170741-trans-activists-set-off-explosion-in-attempt-to-sabotage-conference-critical-of-gender-ideology-france

https://www.womensdeclaration.com/en/country-info/france/statement-from-r%C3%A9sistance-lesbienne-about-paris-pride-2021/

It may well not get reported on much; that doesn't mean there isn't stuff happening.

Up until a very few years back, nothing would be reported on in the UK despite feminists getting similar abuse and threats etc. Organising was done underground.

There are some French feminist and lesbian groups involved: https://www.womensdeclaration.com/en/country-info/france/

... Oh! Désolé! J'ai pas fait exprès!

Sorry, everyone, for calling you "guys". I used it to mean "you all", without realising how particularly inappropriate it would be on such a board and in such a conversation.

Pas de problème 😁

Oui, ne vous inquietez pas, OP.

"Feminists have been violently attacked by trans activists, had the usual death threats, etc:"

I'm in neither circles, and it doesn't get reported in the main media, so I wouldn't know about it, so thanks for the links. I never would have thought it was that bad already.

And thanks for the link to women's declaration. I'll definitely be looking into it.

“As I explained in a previous post: blame the TRAs. They are the ones who removed so many safeguarding practices around women and children, that now people have to put up their own personal safeguarding limits.”

Thank you Seethlaw for pointing this out. I was about to go off and get examples of the latest activists who had been charged who were allowed into schools to give lessons to children who have been found to be child sex abusers. These are male people delivering lessons on diversity and gender identity.

The issue is that there ARE activists entering schools delivering questionable content. So therefore there is suspicion because the safeguarding that should be operating is not protecting children.

I have also watched on personally while teachers who are good at their jobs have influenced their students politically in my teen’s secondary school. I didn’t realise what was happening until I sat watching the interactions during a leaver’s ceremony. I knew the teacher was moving to another school as was my teen, so I didn’t say anything. I watched a female teacher sitting amongst the students who chose to sit beside her, make negative facial expressions when the guest speaker referred to a group of young female students as ‘girls’.

I realised that teacher sitting there was visibly signalling to the girls sitting around her that this was transphobic, when I heard her quietly but still in my hearing, complaining that they were not all ‘girls’ some were ‘boys’. But of course, they were all female students. I had realised now that there was an issue in that school and that teachers there had crossed the line in their political activism. To be clear the teacher was not trans, but wore a progress flag lanyard with numerous trans ally badges.

So, yes. There are legitimate concerns in the UK about teachers overstepping acceptable boundaries. Plus there are public examples of people brought into the schools delivering questionable content who have been found to be child sex offenders, and so questions about safeguarding our children are legitimate.

Then there are even examples of male teachers with transgender identities being active in developing policies that allowed male students and teachers to use female single sex provisions. To my knowledge, these may have been still in place up at the time of the Supreme Court judgement. And this was policy written by a male teacher who is considered by some people to be a moderate transgender voice. But the policy still was active last I knew, the damage had been done.

Then comes the issue, as is the topic of that thread pp referred to, around the use of titles and pronouns. There are so many people who don’t see any issue around the messaging title and pronoun usage gives to children.

I find the messaging to children that male people have female honorifics and pronouns that must be used, even if that child needs and wants to use correct sex language to be a significant issue. It is not only signalling to that child that they must comply with that person’s philosophical belief which doesn’t reflect material reality, but it is supporting the theory that humans can change sex. Because in English pronouns and titles are sex based. Many people don’t think the use of pronouns through, well not beyond ‘it is kind and respectful’. I fine it neither kind nor respectful that people have to change established language conventions to personalise language to suit the person they are speaking to or about.

I believe there are many reasons to be concerned about who is in schools teaching our children. I think that it is also ridiculous to declare that at the moment safeguarding in schools around teachers and lesson content is as strong as it should be. Because it isn’t.

And of course, it should be obvious that ‘not all teachers are safeguarding risk’ just like not all teachers with transgender identifies are safeguarding risks. But some do present safeguarding issues that need to be discussed.

Adding this one too

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4347832-Lesbians-attacked-with-fire-at-Bordeaux-Pride-France?flipped=1&page=1

I wonder if OP followed what happened to Dora Moutot and Marguerite Stern and the degree of threats and abuse that those women received?

No, those are not names that ring a bell. But then again, as I said, I'm not in feminist circles, and those things are not much reported by the mainstream media.

Hmm, I see they got a book out...

Seethlaw, If I could just add my gratitude for your openness, honesty and receptiveness. I’d give you a hug in the ‘real’ world.

I don’t know why, but I feel that PhoebesPony didn’t get exactly what they wanted from this thread 🤔. It is just a feeling I have but…

I am learning so much from this nuanced discussion of the trans experience and your sharing and it has got me wondering how things turned so hostile so quickly.

Much has already been mentioned and acknowledge, illegal overreach, no debate shutting down a proper conversation, the virulent concerted attack on women as a vulnerable group questioning the boundaries and then forced to assert them in courts of law.

But as someone who has had to navigate a mental health condition my whole life I think some therapeutic methods would help bring some of the most vulnerable into a more balanced recognition of their past trauma and healthier ways to manage past trauma. Not for every one of course but it as starting point for discussing some ways in which some trans identities have developed. To do so requires me to explore some one possible premise of how some trans identities have come about.

I would lay much of the damage done to a weird inability of much of the therapeutic community to set appropriate boundaries and question effective and thoroughly their clients’ perspectives.

The affirmation-only model attracts the type of people who tend to become therapists. It takes an extraordinary level of self-reflection as a professional to recognise how their own foibles are informing the work they do with clients and the challenge function of peer reviewing of therapeutic interventions just seemed to go AWOL for a decade. Anyone who raised alarm bells was outcast., their jobs threatened, professional life in tatters. The Tavistock debacle and its ideas of no debate in a therapeutic setting was disastrous.

I have borderline personality disorder. The low self esteem and unstable sense of who I am has led to periods of extreme emotional fluctuation. It was way worse as a teen and young woman and, as a lesbian. I can see very easily how my identity was further fractured by trying to fit into a world that felt hostile and unforgiving and how with unscrupulous or naive counselling I may have ended up in a different place to where I luckily am.

The hyperbole of much of the TRA reaction over their right to exist rings bells with me. At my most ill, my sense of self was so frail, any criticism was seen almost as a form of psychic annihilation and bodily the stress responses of panic attacks anxiety and mania did lead to overwhelming desire to self harm. Once it did lead to a suicide attempt.

Thanks to some fantastic people and the right medication, I was able to reframe my catastrophic black and white thinking.

I do wonder if a number of vocal TRAs have come as a trauma response and some are are stuck in stage one, the fear of psychic annihilation. Their therapists and allies using the affirmation model are only underlining this making it difficult for vulnerable minds to cope in the challenges of everyday life in a pluralistic society.

Constant affirmation and validation is only possible in a bubble and one is stuck or re traumatised when dealing with the setbacks and competing demands of other valid perspectives. Hard to avoid, hence the attempt at concerted roll out to the rest of society and demand for all the concessions to those termed the most vulnerable. It was always going on end up in collision with other groups exerting their rights.

So when someone else sounds dismissive there is a mass acting-out, how dare you, it is more than a tantrum, the emotional explosion to the trigger is anger or a self destructive impulse of anger turned inward.

I guess I am asking can you recognise their experience or was your experience more a drip drip of something really doesn’t feel right with me.

I am being incredible clumsy in framing this but I am trying to navigate towards a place of common understanding. I don’t want to dismiss the hurt of the trans community entirely and this was a way in for me personally. Sorry if this sounds like a patronising or misguided analogy.

I don’t think anyone is dismissing people who are in pain, physical or mental, regardless of sex.

but I do believe that women on this board primarily are concerned with women and girls, biological women and girls. There will always be a risk in some cases of mixing of the sexes (changing rooms, rape centres, prisons, hospitals, sleeping accommodation) and this risk should be a part of general safeguarding in schools and built into the fabric of our society.

I have also enjoyed this discussion and to hear more about OP’s experience. With regards to a “common understanding “ and “hurt of the trans community “ , doing anything about that seems to always involve letting some “special men” mixing with women and girls in the instances above.

I live in France and I feel like France is just a completely different animal in so many ways.

I think that many trans people think of France as being a safer and more tolerant country for trans people than the UK. This seems to be based largely on two things.

One is that it is apparently easier to get "gender affirming" treatment in France than in the UK. I cannot really comment on this as I have obviously not tried to access it myself, other than to say that it would not surprise me if people are getting quicker treatment in France as opposed to the long waiting lists for NHS care, but I highly doubt whether there is less medical gatekeeping. And France moved to restrict puberty blockers almost immediately after the NHS did, in the wake of the Cass review.

The other aspect is single sex spaces. I think there are just fewer of them in France, full stop. I don't agree with the people who pop up on every thread about toilets to say that France only has unisex toilets. I have literally no idea where they are getting that from because I see and use women's toilets all the time in France. But, for example, at the local swimming pool (and indeed every public swimming pool I have ever been to in France) there is only mixed changing with individual cubicles, and one open shower area where everyone keeps their swimsuit on. Technically it would be very easy for a man to put his phone under the wall of the cubicle when I am getting changed at the pool, and I am usually busy with my children so I probably wouldn't even notice. So it is clearly not risk free, but it is what everyone is used to. For what it is worth I have never seen either a man behaving inappropriately or someone who was noticeably trans at the swimming pool. I would imagine that many trans people tend to avoid swimming pools anyway, especially in France where skin tight swimwear is mandated. I also don't tend to see many ethnic minority women at the swimming pool, and I wonder whether the lack of single sex changing facilities leads them to self exclude. Obviously France doesn't really cater for people's religious beliefs so Muslim women would be expected to just deal with the mixed sex changing situation or accept that they can't go swimming.

I do think that the trans debate isn't really raging in France the way it is in the UK, although there have been some violent protests by trans activists and women like Dora Moutot and Marguerite Stern have been repeatedly threatened. I think that these incidents don't get very much news coverage and when they do, the feminists are usually portrayed in a negative light. In part this is because trans activism is so much less of a hot topic in France that very few people can understand what the feminists are angry about, and so it's even easier to label them far right.

But I also think that in general the trans activists have been more careful not to overplay their hand in France because deep down they know they will lose. France is a much more socially conservative country than the UK and about a third of the electorate are voting for the RN. The government is also acutely aware of this and they know that if they go round saying that women can have penises or some of the other ridiculous stuff politicians have been saying in the Anglophone world, they will just be handing the reins to the far right at the next election. But I also think that, outside the relatively small echo chamber of the far left, nobody here actually believes that une trans femme est une femme, or that a non binary person is neither male nor female. And most French parents would feel more comfortable saying, "Don't be so stupid, of course you're not a girl, you're a boy." In the same way they they don't accept their children refusing to say "bonjour" or not eating vegetables. In the same way that there is much less understanding of and tolerance for people with conditions like autism and ADHD. In France, conformity is valued much more than non conformity. Which is not always a good thing, but it has probably helped to prevent the trans stuff from getting out of control.

Both Brigitte Macron and a member of the government (I forget who) criticised the Robert dictionnaire's decision to include the neo pronoun "iel" in the dictionary, saying that this word does not belong in the French language. The French language is also, in general, much less accommodating of preferred pronouns. There is no gender neutral, so even "iel" defaults to the masculine as soon as you try to use it in a sentence. You can call a trans woman "she" but there is no "her" because the pronoun "her" is gendered according to the object being possessed (sa table, son portefeuille) as opposed to the person doing the possessing. And a lot of the differences between the feminine and masculine can only be seen in written language, not heard in speech. (For example, when you add an extra "e" on the end of a word to make it feminine, it is usually seen but not heard.)

I also think that fundamentally, when you come from a culture where every inanimate object has a gender which can't be changed, so you know that a table is feminine and can never be masculine, and a snail is masculine even if it is female, the idea that humans can change gender is never quite going to compute.

I did, however, do a training session on DEI last year, which was two hours long and almost didn't mention trans stuff at all. Most of it was very sensible and focused on things like disability discrimination, sex discrimination and ageism. There was just one example in the workshop we had to do which concerned a male construction manager having to deal with male employees not wanting to share changing rooms with a gay man and we had to discuss how we would handle the situation. But the heading was "sexual orientation and gender identity". So I made the point that it would be a different situation if the person was trans rather than gay and there was a question mark over what changing facilities they should use. Then the trainer told me with a straight face that trans women are women and that female staff who don't want to get changed in the company of a trans woman are exactly the same as male staff who don't want to get changed in the company of a gay man. Oh dear. And then she told me, but don't worry, it's not like in the UK where you have self ID. I wasn't going to contradict her in front of everyone but I did feel that she snatched defeat from the jaws of victory in what was otherwise a very good training session.

Fundamentally I think that these ideas have come from America and been spread in large part via the internet, in English. So for the cohort of teens who all suddenly identified as trans and non binary a few years ago, it makes sense that the native English speakers would be more susceptible to it. My children are still young but I get the impression that French children are less permanently online anyway, less likely to have their own iPad, more likely to have three hours of homework every night and spend every Wednesday doing sport or at the accueil du mercredi.

Anyway, this was a long long ramble. If life really is easier for trans people in France, which I hope is the case, I'm pretty sure it's because they're generally keeping a low profile and not pissing everyone off with an ever more unreasonable list of demands. And I do think that French politicians often look at what is happening in other countries and assess whether it's a good thing or a bad thing there before deciding whether to support it in France. Even if the Supreme Court judgment hasn't made the headlines here, I'm sure those in the government who are in charge of DEI related policies are quietly taking note.

I feel this is worth repeating ad infinitum.

Shame you have to act like 'a space invader' with your negative comments designed to inflame.

@woollyhatter

"I think some therapeutic methods would help bring some of the most vulnerable into a more balanced recognition of their past trauma and healthier ways to manage past trauma. Not for every one of course but it as starting point for discussing some ways in which some trans identities have developed. "

That'd be great, along with more medical studies into the causes of trans identity, but the thing is, it goes against the orthodox position of the trans community. Those trans people who believe that being trans is a medical issue are not viewed well at all by the rest of trans people.

"I would lay much of the damage done to a weird inability of much of the therapeutic community to set appropriate boundaries and question effective and thoroughly their clients’ perspectives."

Well, to be fair, they are not trained to do that. Most therapists have no idea how to handle a trans patient, so they just make sure that there are no psychotic issues involved, and they sign off on a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. And even if a therapist did decide to more deeply question a trans patient, the patient would likely just dismiss them as transphobic and change therapist - especially if that patient has already reached out to the trans community, where they would be told to "shop around" for a trans-friendly therapist, and maybe even given a list.

"I do wonder if a number of vocal TRAs have come as a trauma response and some are are stuck in stage one, the fear of psychic annihilation. "

I suppose it's a possibility for some of them, yes.

But don't underestimate the power of simple frustration. I've heard a lot of trans people complain more or less loudly about being reminded every so often that they are not of the opposite sex. Take such people, put them in an echo chamber full of affirmations that yes, it's unfair that the entire world doesn't immediately and forever acknowledge them as being the opposite sex, and they'll only become more and more demanding and angry at any opposition.

There's also the matter of disappointment. Some trans people are fully happy with their modified body, but a lot have some degree or other of disappointment at the results. And instead of seeking therapy to deal with that disappointment, they turn that frustration onto the outside world.

"Constant affirmation and validation is only possible in a bubble and one is stuck or re traumatised when dealing with the setbacks and competing demands of other valid perspectives."

Indeed!!

"It was always going on end up in collision with other groups exerting their rights."

Yup. I already saw this happening when I was still in the community, a decade ago. A classic example was the right of married trans people to transition vs. the right of their partners to be profoundly upset. And already it was too often couched in terms of, "How can I make her/him come to my point of view?" instead of acknowledging that the partner was entirely entitled to their own opinions and feelings.

"I guess I am asking can you recognise their experience or was your experience more a drip drip of something really doesn’t feel right with me."

Neither. I detail my re-awakening to my trans identity somewhere in a previous post, but to summarise: it was sudden, but calm. As far as I can tell, there's no trauma attached to it. And I've never let my frustration at the forever incomplete state of my transition turn into bitterness, let alone anger, especially not towards others. What would be the point? It wouldn't change the factual state of my situation.

Now I wonder if there IS a therapist somewhere specialising in the causes of trans identity...

I don't know how anyone keeps up with posting on FWR threads, I feel there are so many new posts I'd want to reply to! Apologies for not responding more individually. I'm heartened to see some posters appreciate hearing our thoughts 😊

A couple of posts mention safeguarding and I wholeheartedly agree. There is a reason I lurk (and now post!) here and not in a TRA forum. The facts are that a study showed TWs retain male patterns of criminality. As a TW, that's was very uncomfortable reading for me, but it is the truth, and the truth matters. For me, that totally justifies treating TWs the same as other males when it comes to crime and safeguarding.

To my knowledge, perhaps people here know more, there hasn't been a study showing TWs are any worse than other males in terms of crime. If there were, I'd also accept that as true, and that would justify greater restrictions on TWs, however unfortunate that would be for me personally. It's not about me, it's about a safe society. Without such a study, I hope treating TWs identically to other males is sufficient, and I'm certainly okay with that.

@woollyhatter
"I guess I am asking can you recognise their experience or was your experience more a drip drip of something really doesn’t feel right with me."

I guess I'll chip in too on this; I think you're absolutely right about some trans people being very traumatised. Screaming for validation is not the action of someone who is secure in their identity.

It's not my experience at all though, one of the things I often discuss with my (GC) family members, who now all fully accept I have had dysphoria since young childhood, is that none of us can find an obvious "cause". I wasn't abused, I was in a loving household, I had plenty of support. I don't associate my feelings with any traumatic memory. We none of us can come up with any explanation why it manifested, it just did. It started long before I learned of trans people, or anything of the sort. I really have, for whatever reason, always from a young age been uncomfortable with the male aspects of my body. I'd love to know why!

It's interesting I see @Seethlaw has posted similarly. I wonder if there is a correlation between "nuanced" trans people and certain kinds of dysphoria. We both seem to be describing some similar experiences 🤔

@MissScarletInTheBallroom

"I think that many trans people think of France as being a safer and more tolerant country for trans people than the UK."

I saw something to that effect on a trans website, and I was very surprised. How can a country which doesn't have a GRA, be called more tolerant than one who does??

"One is that it is apparently easier to get "gender affirming" treatment in France than in the UK. I cannot really comment on this as I have obviously not tried to access it myself, other than to say that it would not surprise me if people are getting quicker treatment in France as opposed to the long waiting lists for NHS care, but I highly doubt whether there is less medical gatekeeping. "

If you go the "official' way, then there's most definitely a lot of medical gatekeeping. I wouldn't know about waiting lists, especially these days, but I doubt they are short, though probably nowhere as long as in the UK. If you go private, then yes, it can go very fast, but I imagine that's no different in the UK?

"And France moved to restrict puberty blockers almost immediately after the NHS did, in the wake of the Cass review."

No surprise there, as the official body supervising trans care has historically been reluctant to grant hormones and surgeries even to adults.

"I would imagine that many trans people tend to avoid swimming pools anyway, especially in France where skin tight swimwear is mandated."

I know I do. I'd feel weird going around with no top and "empty" skintight shorts. But I've just moved closer to the sea, so I'll have to get over that :D ! Like hell I'm going to let that stop me...

"But I also think that in general the trans activists have been more careful not to overplay their hand in France because deep down they know they will lose. "

I'm not sure they are that prudent, honestly. I think it's more a matter of, what can they ask for? Sex is already defined as sex observed at birth in law. And France won't go for a GRA any time soon. Only thing they can ask for - and they do - is for sex to be changed on a simple declaration instead of through the justice system. Other than that, they are legally stuck.

"But I also think that, outside the relatively small echo chamber of the far left, nobody here actually believes that une trans femme est une femme, or that a non binary person is neither male nor female."

Believe that une femme trans est une femme, no. Be willing to pretend, on the other hand and in my experience, yes. But only as long as it doesn't go too far. As for non-binary, I've never come across anyone who identifies as such, or heard of anyone else meeting one.

"Fundamentally I think that these ideas have come from America and been spread in large part via the internet, in English."

Absolutely. It's a trend I've observed since forever: everything that's big in America arrives in France a few years later. Well, maybe a few months now, with internet.

"I get the impression that French children are less permanently online anyway, less likely to have their own iPad,"

I don't know about that. It's a big national cause right now, the concern over children spending way too much time online.

"Anyway, this was a long long ramble."

But a very interesting one, at least for me. Thanks for posting it!

"And I do think that French politicians often look at what is happening in other countries and assess whether it's a good thing or a bad thing there before deciding whether to support it in France. "

I bet, yes!

@TroubledWatersTW

"It's interesting I see has posted similarly. I wonder if there is a correlation between "nuanced" trans people and certain kinds of dysphoria. We both seem to be describing some similar experiences 🤔"

If it turns out that there are other kinds of dysphoria which are associated with trauma, then I guess it would make sense. Traumatised trans people would obviously be much more reactive and defensive than non-traumatised ones.

On the subject of France ...there was an interesting documentary on Channel 4? a few years ago ' La Petite Fille' about a young french boy who was identifying as a girl, and positively encouraged/supported in this by his mother; less so his father.This child had developed this 'girl' identity at a very young age...maybe 3 or 4.

I was amazed that the mother did not have a moment of realisation or awareness when she talked of how much she had longed for a daughter whilst pregnant with him, and how disappointed she had been when he was born. It was a real devastation for her.

Obviously children live in the psychic atmosphere created by their parents, and whilst it may not have been an obvious trauma....being subliminally aware that whenever his mother looked upon him, she imagined seeing a girl might well have created some sort of alienation from his male self/body.