Interim guidance from EHRC is out

[impossibletoday]

https://x.com/HeadWarriorTWM/status/1915853104421167211?t=qbUrcHVdtPyqVB1uZ5depA&s=19

I’ve clearly not been here long enough (only joined 18m ago)…will note Butterfly for future reference.

@Darkgreendarkbark It's not realistic for staff to take time out of their working day to somehow verify the biological sex of a trans man who has popped into the gents at their own risk and caused no trouble to anyone, so that you can prove a point. But go ahead, if you want to.

I disagree. If there are toilets that are single-sex, and if the law states that transgender people are to be excluded from single-sex facilities, then it's wrong for transgender men to be in those toilets.

I don't believe I should have to put up with it just because a transgender man supposedly isn't causing problems. If everyone has a right to single-sex facilities, then that right is extended to me too.

Are you being deliberately confrontational, obtuse or just downright hard of thinking? The law does NOT state that transgender people are to be excluded from single sex spaces. It states (for the third and final time) that TG people should use the facilities appropriate for their sex and there there MAY be a few instances where it is reasonable under (unspecified) laws when a TW may not use men’s facilities and TM may not use women’s facilities. They have yet to highlight which laws/circumstances when this MIGHT apply and have stated categorically that IF there are such circumstances then 3rd spaces MUST be made available.

I am as GC as they come, but I find your posts to be the total definition of transphobia and feel they are deliberately trying to stoke up hatred, misinformation and fear. JUST STOP IT!!!

@CautiousLurker01 The law does NOT state that transgender people are to be excluded from single sex spaces.

"Trans women (biological men) should not be permitted to use the women’s facilities and trans men (biological women) should not be permitted to use the men’s facilities, as this will mean that they are no longer single-sex facilities and must be open to all users of the opposite sex."

(By the way, the fact that this very discussion is happening illustrates my point that the rules and guidelines and confusing.)

@shuggles
I'm reading that as you are male and are objecting to transmen (actually female) using the Gents facilities?

If that's the case I do actually agree.

I 100% agree that the law is saying single sex means that, not just for female facilities but male facilities too.

Men and Boys are entitled to their privacy and dignity too.

Cut and pasted from the Guidance itself:

In workplaces and services that are open to the public:

• trans women (biological men) should not be permitted to use the women’s facilities and trans men (biological women) should not be permitted to use the men’s facilities, as this will mean that they are no longer single-sex facilities and must be open to all users of the opposite sex
• in some circumstances the law also allows trans women (biological men) not to be permitted to use the men’s facilities, and trans men (biological woman) not to be permitted to use the women’s facilities
• however where facilities are available to both men and women, trans people should not be put in a position where there are no facilities for them to use
• where possible, mixed-sex toilet, washing or changing facilities in addition to sufficient single-sex facilities should be provided
• where toilet, washing or changing facilities are in lockable rooms (not cubicles) which are intended for the use of one person at a time, they can be used by either women or men

Ie TG people are NOT excluded from single sex spaces… they must simply use the space that aligns with their biological sex - ie TW use the mens; TM use the women's EXCEPT for a few instances (unspecified) where the law states that TW may not use men’s facilities or TM use the women’s… in which case mixed sex spaced should be made available.

But the guidance doesn’t require trans men to use the men’s facilities? It states they must use either the women’s OR unisex facilities and, where specific laws allow trans men (ie women) to be reasonably excluded from the women’s facilities, then 3rd/unisex facilities should be made available?

We aren't disagreeing about that.

What I'm saying is that, as with any rule that a business must ask their customers to follow, there is no magic wand.

You've brought up an imagined edge case, in which it's not clear to staff that a rule has even been broken (it's just your say-so). What do you honestly expect to happen? I can't tell you, because I can't speak for every public-facing service sector employee in the land. If I were the employee and you came to me with that tale, I'd be thinking "Oh JFC, WTAF. Why do we live in upside-down world, and why can't this guy just wait a moment to use the loos". Then maybe I'd ask a male colleague to pop his head round the door.

Ultimately, the service provider has to judge the consequences. If they are advertising that anyone can go anywhere, or consistently refusing to deal with obvious breaches, then they're clearly taking a big risk with the law. If they're letting predatory men stalk about in the ladies' changing rooms with their cocks out, then they are taking risks with public safety too - and they can now be confident in dealing with any such incidents, no longer paralysed by the notion that the Equality Act forbids them to. If a man rushes up to the Reception desk effectively saying "there's a lady in the gents, she looks like a man but I went to school with her and I know she's not", the staff are going to have to weigh up WTF is truly going on here, who the troublemaker is, who is actually at risk, and what a reasonable response is, by which time said lady has probably left the gents and moved on.

I can see why you've invented this scenario, because it's the mirror image of what transactivists have always liked to imagine - the mythical trans woman who passes, and the mythical Karens who somehow find out and have the vulnerable trans woman forcibly removed pending "genital inspection". Funnily enough I've never witnessed that - only cross-dressers parading about for hours in the loos as if marking out territory, while women try to get in and out as quickly as they can, or avoid the facilities entirely. I've also never once, ever, heard of men coming to harm, being filmed, etc by a woman in male or mixed facilities.

By all means, if you are troubled by a transman in the gents at any time, go and complain. I don't disagree. Meanwhile, I will write to my bus company complaining that it's not fair to let fare-dodgers stay on the bus. We are both righteous crusaders. I'll save most of my crusading energy on protecting women and girls, though.

@Darkgreendarkbark That sounds like a two-tier society to me.

@CautiousLurker01 Ie TG people are NOT excluded from single sex spaces… they must simply use the space that aligns with their biological sex - ie TW use the mens; TM use the women's EXCEPT for a few instances (unspecified) where the law states that TW may not use men’s facilities or TM use the women’s… in which case mixed sex spaced should be made available.

Ah, I get you now. How does that contradict anything we've been talking about though?

Maybe we’ve been talking at cross purposes?

What, how women are under threat from men, whereas men are not under threat from women? Yeah, totally agree.

Oh, wait, I see.

Tell it to the girl on Reception, tell it to the bus company. Maybe you'll find that your complaints are indeed dealt with to your satisfaction. What do I know?

What's a damn sight more important than "Schrödinger's transman in the gents" is public bodies no longer feeling obliged to send rapists to a women's jail, that kind of thing. You know.

@Darkgreendarkbark What's a damn sight more important than "Schrödinger's transman in the gents" is public bodies no longer feeling obliged to send rapists to a women's jail, that kind of thing. You know.

I'm confused. This comment would suggest that you think people should use single-sex facilities in a way that is aligned with their biological sex. But your other comments would suggest that you are indifferent to how single-sex facilities are used.

Why don't you read my posts again? You might be less confused.

I will break it down for you here:

1. the law is the law
2. I, a woman, do not want men in women's spaces, for all the very obvious reasons
3. if a woman goes into a man's space despite the rules, I personally am not going to give much of a a fuck about it, just like I don't cry myself to sleep about countless other rules which people might break at no real risk to others. If men notice and give a fuck about it, fine. I'm more concerned with why a young woman did that to herself in the first place. But she has, so there we all are. In upside-down world. Something for service provider, men and transmen to worry about.

I’m with you on 1 and 2… but surely you can see that if 3 is allowed, then we have no leg to stand on when TW come into women’s spaces? Because (1) the law is the law… it’s not just the law when it suits us as women. And, frankly, given part of the reason we do not want men in women’s spaces is to do with privacy and dignity - WHY aren’t men entitled to the same? Why isn’t my teen age son allowed to shower without negotiating women in his space, no matter how hairy or well healed her mastectomy scars? Why should my FiL, a lovely, chivalrous and old fashioned gent, be made to feel uncomfortable in those same circumstances. No, whilst TW may present more of a safeguarding risk to women in women’s spaces due to the risk of assault/violence, men are just as entitled to their privacy and dignity. The law has to serve all equally and that includes men. That is why 3rd spaces have been proposed all along and why the guidance references the need for them even now.

Hypotheticals about men's toilets are pointless.

Men's toilets are men's problem to sort.

It's not up to women to police men's spaces.

Can I refer you back to 1? In which I said the law is the law? Which I have never disagreed with?

Look, transman in the gents - I know of one who was raped in there. It's not good news for anyone that they go in there. Uncomfortable for male patrons if they realise, risky to the transman if predatory males realise.

I find it really disingenuous for a transactivist to be using them as a "gotcha", and that's what I'm really objecting to here. To use them to score points, and try and evoke some kind of toilet-policing fantasy strawman, is what I object to.

Unisex spaces (fourth spaces as disabled/accessible spaces are already in third place and should be top priority not bottom) are only necessary where single sex spaces have a good reason for excluding some or all people of that sex who have the PC of GR (we need to wait and see what the EHRC say on this).

Not even if you are the mother of teenaged sons? Or the daughter of elderly vulnerable men? Surely they deserve protection and consideration too?

No, I don't think this is on women to sort.

The ruling is clear. Single sex spaces are solely for people of that sex. The interim guidance is also clear. If males with or without a GRC use a female only provision, it is no longer a female provision. It becomes mixed sex, and any male would have a valid discrimination claim if they too were not granted access.

No one said it's for women to sort.

You did, at 16:45 today.

Well, I disagree. It is legally and morally my responsibility to ensure my teenage son is safe and his dignity is protected in single sex spaces that I or his father cannot accompany him in.

And the ruling stated both that ‘women’ means biological women and ‘men’ means biological men. It is for us as a society to ensure that persons of both sexes follow the law, not just the ones that impact us personally. It is up to us as a society - men and women - to ensure ALL single sex spaces are protected (because not protecting men’s spaces weakens the strength of legal protection for women’s spaces) and it is down to society to ensure that there are safe unisex spaces for those who are not welcome in either single sex spaces.

Totally agree, transmen need to stay out of male spaces.

And remember its not just toilets, it's a whole list of single sex spaces from
toilets,
changing rooms,
hospitals (who at there most vulnerable wants to share with opposite sex)
Prisons
Single sex groups,
Prisons
Youth hostels