Interim guidance from EHRC is out

[impossibletoday]

https://x.com/HeadWarriorTWM/status/1915853104421167211?t=qbUrcHVdtPyqVB1uZ5depA&s=19

It does, I absolutely agree.
Sorry, I was just annoyed at yet another “well, if we can’t go in yours, you can’t come in ours either” post.
Although , it’s perfectly true, we can’t.

And so you should.

You have not understood it, then. It says ‘that in some circumstances’ the law allows for the exclusion of trans men in male spaces and vice versa, but goes on to state that where this is the case an alternative mixed-sex provision should be made available so that no trans person is excluded.

It does not, as it is an interim guidance, specify which laws allow for this exclusion, but I assume that will be forthcoming and assume that where this creates contention companies will seek legal guidance and/or get that 3rd space sorted sooner rather than later.

@CautiousLurker01 Creation of 3rd spaces is not my responsibility. What you have said aligns with what I was saying- that transgender men should not be permitted in men's spaces.

Because men and boys deserve their privacy and dignity too.
Some men probably couldn't give a hoot, others would care, for exactly the same reasons men shouldn't be in the Ladies.

Body conscious (particularly teens and older men)
Privacy getting changed.
Religious reasons.
Privacy to groom themselves,
Men just don't groom themselves in public!
(women pull brushes out at their desks, you NEVER see men sort their hair in public 😉 )

I'll add Safeguarding too, Safeguarding isn't just about protecting vulnerable, it's also about making sure you as an adult aren't in a situation where you can be accused of wrong doing.

Equality means everyone has equal rights.

I don’t disagree at all.

Because these are minimum wage service staff, trying to balance a million things, and defuse tricky situations.

Why does my bus driver let people on who make a bad excuse about having lost their bus pass? Because the bus driver (often female, usually men who try this) wants to avoid aggro, and needs to keep the bus moving. If I stand up and say "But I know that man and I know he doesn't have a bus pass", the driver is not going to thank me. It doesn't mean anyone thinks the man has a right to be on the bus.

A business might need to provide single sex loos. They should then do what's reasonable to make sure they are single sex. Like not having signs up suggesting that people can go "wherever they feel most comfortable". If patrons are clearly taking the piss or causing a threat, staff should intervene. It's not realistic for staff to take time out of their working day to somehow verify the biological sex of a trans man who has popped into the gents at their own risk and caused no trouble to anyone, so that you can prove a point. But go ahead, if you want to.

@ButterflyHatched Again, I get that you’re upset but have you thought about anyone but yourself? And by “anyone”, I don’t mean other trans people, I mean women - have you even stopped for one moment to think why women don’t want men in their spaces? Or maybe that you’ve been misled in what you believed your rights to be?

No, you just fling around accusations of “hate” and “needing to get a hobby”.

That does not make it women's responsibility as a sex class.

I suppose it is helpful as the guidance is being consulted on and the political parties are looking at how it will work, that the gender lobby is making it very clear they plan to ignore women's rights and have about the same amount of respect for the law as they do for women. Its an obvious problem to deal with.

We can get the enforcement built in from the start, thanks for demonstrating the need chaps.

Why have you taken that literally 🙈
You really do argue at a toddler like level.

I swear Butters is a secret GC activist. Nobody has ever made the case for women's single sex spaces as eloquently as he has. Every single post he makes just screams out why women need to be away from men.

Thank you for your service

@Darkgreendarkbark
You can tell anyone to leave. They can either leave, or appeal to a member of staff. The member of staff is the one responsible - well, their employer is.
What they will probably say is "I don't care about this, can you both just do your business quickly and leave the loos".
Whereas if I report a hulking male hanging round the ladies' all evening in fishnets (a situation I've encountered before), it's obvious that a) this is a biological man and b) they are not there because they just need to pee. So I'd hope it's a clearer case for staff to take action.

This is how exactly I imagine to work in a practical way.

Just in case it's interesting - I feel quite uncomfortable when transmen are in the men's loos or changing rooms with me, which does happen from time to time. But the reasons are I think quite different - it makes me feel like a creep or a predator being in a space where a woman is undressing.

Partly this is fear of being accused of behaving inappropriately, but mostly it's that affording women privacy when they're undressing or vulnerable is so.ingrained that it feels icky not to do so.

Thats understandable. Men are entitled to privacy and dignity, too.

I didn’t say that though - you are deliberately misconstruing.

I said/the interim guidance says that in certain circumstances some laws MAY permit the exclusion of trans women from men’s spaces and vice versa. Ie the normal rule is that they should not be excluded unless it is explicitly allowed for in the [unspecified] laws the guidance refers to. And where those exclusions apply, the guidance states there must be 3rd spaces.

Body modifications can have consequences. If you get face tattoos, you will be excluded from many jobs. If you alter your appearance to imitate the opposite sex, you may find it hard to access spaces that cater for your own personal constellation of 'masculine' and 'feminine' attributes.

That might be how it will work with clients
But an employer will have to act if their employee is causing the employer to break the law.

And actually if it's regular client they could easily get banned if it's causing upset to women.

Yes, I think if there's a pattern of staff failing to deal with incidents, or even a single serious incident, the employer is put at risk of legal action and reputational damage. That's a far cry from "what if a convincing transman popped to the loo and I happened to know he was trans and I ran to Reception to report him, and they failed to immediately send in the Guards to handcuff him, drag him out of the loos mid-wee and force him to show his birth certificate".

This is such an important point.

I realise that lots of trans-identifying people who’ve done irreversible things were misled (and many were transed by their parents as children), which is an absolute travesty.

While I do feel for the people who might regret their (or their parents’) decisions now the law has been clarified, this is also a perfect example of why there should be more oversight and regulation around body modifications for the practice of gender identity ideology, just as there are for most other body modifications.

There isn't a woman in the world who has taken a photo of herself triumphantly crowing in the women's toilets simply because she's in the women's toilets.

You?

Think hard now...

Fair point, it's a aspect I hadn't thought about. I'll keep that thought in mind.

I thought about Safeguarding the man because of training.

Oh wow, it's been a while since I last saw Butterfly on this board. Anyone remember when he used to pretend to be the reasonable voice of transactivism but subsequently showed off his male entitlement in every post?

The mask slipped a while ago and now the raging footstamping because women won't just do what they're told is right on the surface.

It's a road more travelled

The main thing that has damaged trans people's access to health care would have been being allowed to change their medical records,

Was allowing them to change their medical records.
And for a man identifying as a woman he will be delighted to get called for a cervical smear because it helps to affirm his identity. Even though he hasn't got a cervix and it's a complete waste of anyone's time making an appointment for him.