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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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Namechangeforobviousreasons100 · 27/04/2025 10:47

KilkennyCats · 27/04/2025 10:43

They can dress and present how they like, I still don’t believe in “gender identity” as a concept.

I think that’s a rather simplistic, black and white view

BabaYagasHouse · 27/04/2025 10:48

TheOtherRaven · 27/04/2025 09:15

Quoting this again as it is such a solid point, it was absolutely cynical, intentional, a hostile take over, an act of deliberate colonisation. Intended to be done quietly without public understanding to avoid women being protected or able to resist. And in the full belief that women's interests, privacy and even their safety was absolutely worthless, the only purpose they had was in how men could use them.

Women have been harmed by men doing this. It has taken YEARS to overturn this to stop the harm to women, while men threatened to rape them and kill them, doxxed them, blocked them from services, had them arrested, women have managed to fight through despite a profoundly misogynist state that would much have preferred to go on enabling men to harm them while women were gagged from resisting or complaining about it.

I have no sympathy to spare for sadness that the access to continuing this harm has finally been thwarted. Absolutely none. I could search through and find examples of the posts that made it very clear the person who wants sympathy and apology now for women having finally managed to get their existing bloody rights in law to work against men has been and is fully invested in this trampling of women and their rights in order to be able to use them for their own agenda.

It's a huge victory for women, this was a David and Goliath fight all the way - it still is - but the fucking tragedy of it is that all they did was force the state to admit to their existing legal rights. That's it. That's all.

They have the right to get undressed without having to put up with a man who wants to be there with them regardless of how they feel. They have the right to meet other lesbians without men who want to use them in their lesbian fantasies and disrupt their groups.

They can meet other women and talk about issues such as life threatening and disabling illness that only affects women, without being blown apart by men who want to shout a lot of political crap at them about how women talking about their biology and claiming the reality of their health disaster being women only, invalidates them and <insert male rage, threats and awful behaviour here>. Groups have been destroyed that women needed, by men who didn't care about anything but controlling and using the word woman.

I could go on and on, about the woman who was multiply raped and so badly injured that she may never have children, by a man who was in her locked mental health ward having self IDd there, and was then put in a womens prison where he chalked up a few more women victims to entertain himself while awaiting trial.

About the women who lost all access to toilets, gyms, changing rooms, public spaces, because men didn't care if women had nothing and couldn't pee at all so long as THEY could be where they wanted. The women in tears being laughed at in a rape crisis service as they tried to explain the distress they felt at men in the groups and buildings, and told that the price of help was to pretend for a man. And subordinate themselves as they had to subordinate themselves to the man who abused them.

And a man dares to tell those women how very sad they've made him by managing to prove they have the right to say no?

Thank you for the proof, yet again, of WHY women need rock solid protections from men in law to be able to function in society and be permitted anything at all, even basic safety, never mind equality. And the reminder of why women should STILL be bloody raging that this was ever allowed never mind so enabled against them by agencies and services like the police and government who they should have been able to trust.

Edited

So spot on! 👏👏👏

KilkennyCats · 27/04/2025 10:50

Namechangeforobviousreasons100 · 27/04/2025 10:47

I think that’s a rather simplistic, black and white view

Unless you can give me the Idiot’s guide to Gender Identity; we’ll have to agree to differ.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 27/04/2025 10:55

Namechangeforobviousreasons100 · 27/04/2025 10:47

I think that’s a rather simplistic, black and white view

Why?

TheOtherRaven · 27/04/2025 10:58

Datun · 27/04/2025 10:07

Yes, you're going to get a lot of performative clips online of men melting down at the coal face - entrances to changing rooms, toilets etc.

I hope the whole focus shifts from women telling men they can't do it, to service providers telling men they can't do it. And if it carries on, the police. And after that, massive fines for the men.

loads of men are going to thoroughly enjoy taking one for the team, but they won't if they get fined thousands of pounds.

As usual men and their emoting and drama is entirely dominating everything to grip the narrative and all the sympathy.

Women need to be loudly and clearly pointing out the women's experience. People wittering about 'don't you care that he'll have to go in the mens' need to have it pointed out loudly that women have had to deal with mixed sex provision for years or leave, and be threatened for complaining. And asked does the questioner believe that a woman should have no choice but to undress in front of any man who claims the words regardless of his agenda. Because she won't know, she just has to subordinate herself and provide him with the experience of her body. No other part of her is of any interest to him.

The abhorrent attitudes and behaviours have to be exposed, male tears are not somehow more important than women's rapes, assaults, exclusions - I won't bother saying tears, since no one gives a fuck. The fundamental sexism of this has become so very stark, and it has to be pushed in the faces of the public repeatedly. Why the distress if MEN are sad when they were fine with whatever happened to women?

And why would you then require anyone to go on pretending anyone thinks those men are women? If they truly did believe it as a real thing instead of a noble performative gesture, they wouldn't care what happened to them, or how they felt. They would treat them as they treat women.

ThatsNotMyTeen · 27/04/2025 11:03

Merrymouse · 27/04/2025 10:11

It’s ironic isn’t it.

The SNP’s desire to clearly differentiate U.K. and Scottish government policy has repeatedly thrown a spotlight on this issue, which perhaps is not in line with the strategy outlined in the Denton advice?

Yes.

Nicola Sturgeon, “destroyer of women’s rights” as JK wore on her t shirt, has inadvertently done the most to ensure they’re protected, in the end. Thanks Nic!

WandaSiri · 27/04/2025 11:04

@Namechangeforobviousreasons100

I think "inextricably linked" is a bit of a reach.
GNC presentation is not universal for gays and lesbians. It's also pretty common for straight people in relatively equal societies. GNC presentation is not in itself having a tg identity. (And I would argue that what we call GNC presentation in the case of people with an opposite sex identity is actually extreme gender conformity, just opposite sex gender conformity.)

And presentation is a choice - it's just behaviour, signalling behaviour sometimes. SO is innate. It's not an identity. Do people who are uncomfortable with their homosexuality declare a trans identity to avoid having to accept that they are homosexual? Yes, they often do.

Edited to stick to the point!

Aizen · 27/04/2025 11:09

My response to those complaining is that it is largely men who caused all the fuss, so let them and their male toilet/sports/changing rooms/rape crisis centres/prisons and any other relevant space sort it out.

It's between transwomen and biological men now, so get cracking you guys!

LonginesPrime · 27/04/2025 11:10

Namechangeforobviousreasons100 · 27/04/2025 10:39

I take your point that this is unlikely to be a problem in practice. But then why has the EHRC gone out of its way to say (without having yet consulted) that lesbian groups are not allowed to admit trans women?

I wouldn’t be surprised if people now start bringing legal challenges again any lesbian groups that continue to choose to admit trans women.

They have said this because it has been impossible to get women-only lesbian / lesbian bi groups off the ground, as the council refuses planning applications unless they agree to be trans-inclusive, venues (pubs, etc) refuse to host them and get threatened for doing so, and so on.

From my own experience, it was also scary to go to lesbian meetups when the law was unclear (and still is now because of the vitriol, tbh) because I don’t want to be a target, so lesbians feel like they have to meet in secret (similar to how radfem groups have to operate) simply to be able to meet up, as we’re made to feel (by councils and venues) like we’re doing something wrong.

This is an important and current issue lesbians are facing (especially as so many transwomen remain heterosexual, and thus see themselves as lesbians), and since many of the interveners were lesbian advocate groups, this was well-understood by the SC and analysed in their judgment. This meant that it was a super-easy point for the EHRC to clarify upfront as the SC judgment was crystal clear on this.

Most lesbian spaces online (and on dating apps) are full to the brim of transwomen who identify as lesbians (many transwomen are single and looking for a new female partner after the breakdown of their marriage following transition) so this point really did need to be clarified urgently by the EHRC.

Merrymouse · 27/04/2025 11:16

Namechangeforobviousreasons100 · 27/04/2025 10:39

I take your point that this is unlikely to be a problem in practice. But then why has the EHRC gone out of its way to say (without having yet consulted) that lesbian groups are not allowed to admit trans women?

I wouldn’t be surprised if people now start bringing legal challenges again any lesbian groups that continue to choose to admit trans women.

How?

What law would they have broken?

If you want to define your sexuality according to gender identity how is that different to defining your sexuality according to star sign?

The SC ruling makes it specifically legal to exclude men from a lesbian group, but it doesn't legislate on how people define their sexuality if it doesn't relate to sex.

Namechangeforobviousreasons100 · 27/04/2025 11:17

Because I think reducing gender to “people can wear what they like” overlooks the central role that the ideas of masculinity and femininity play in many people’s sense of who there are, and also the way that other people see them.

Namechangeforobviousreasons100 · 27/04/2025 11:19

Namechangeforobviousreasons100 · 27/04/2025 11:17

Because I think reducing gender to “people can wear what they like” overlooks the central role that the ideas of masculinity and femininity play in many people’s sense of who there are, and also the way that other people see them.

This was a reply to @MissScarletInTheBallroom and @KilkennyCats

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 27/04/2025 11:21

Namechangeforobviousreasons100 · 27/04/2025 11:19

This was a reply to @MissScarletInTheBallroom and @KilkennyCats

Do you agree that not everyone has a gender identity?

ArabellaScott · 27/04/2025 11:23

KilkennyCats · 27/04/2025 10:29

Why are you so keen to keep the T attached to LGB provisions?
Trans is not a sexual orientation.

Trans has nothing to do with being same sex attracted.

Namechangeforobviousreasons100 · 27/04/2025 11:23

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 27/04/2025 11:21

Do you agree that not everyone has a gender identity?

It depends what you mean by “a gender identity”. I think for most people feelings about being a man or a woman, and feelings about how masculine or feminine they are, play an important role in their identity

NotAtMyAge · 27/04/2025 11:23

Needspaceforlego · 27/04/2025 00:37

Driving Licence form D1 no longer seems to ask M/F
I've just filled one in there is a mention about gender in the accompanying booklet but no box to tick on the form

I guess it's pointless recording meaningless data.

Being over 70 I have to renew my driving licence every 3 years and have just done so. There is no mention of M/F anywhere on my new licence, so the only thing that could be of any use for a GRC would be proof of using a new name, which anyone can do at any time without legal formalities in the UK.

ArabellaScott · 27/04/2025 11:24

Namechangeforobviousreasons100 · 27/04/2025 11:17

Because I think reducing gender to “people can wear what they like” overlooks the central role that the ideas of masculinity and femininity play in many people’s sense of who there are, and also the way that other people see them.

So what would you expand gender to include?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 27/04/2025 11:24

Merrymouse · 27/04/2025 11:16

How?

What law would they have broken?

If you want to define your sexuality according to gender identity how is that different to defining your sexuality according to star sign?

The SC ruling makes it specifically legal to exclude men from a lesbian group, but it doesn't legislate on how people define their sexuality if it doesn't relate to sex.

It does say that trans women aren't lesbians though.

ArabellaScott · 27/04/2025 11:27

Namechangeforobviousreasons100 · 27/04/2025 11:23

It depends what you mean by “a gender identity”. I think for most people feelings about being a man or a woman, and feelings about how masculine or feminine they are, play an important role in their identity

Can you define masculinity and femininity pls?

These are no more meaningful as categories than 'nice' and 'horrible'. Lots of people feel strongly that they are nice or horrible, but the categories are too vague to organise society around.

Helleofabore · 27/04/2025 11:29

Hasn’t separately LGB from the other letters already been tested in the charity commission ?

Namechangeforobviousreasons100 · 27/04/2025 11:31

ArabellaScott · 27/04/2025 11:27

Can you define masculinity and femininity pls?

These are no more meaningful as categories than 'nice' and 'horrible'. Lots of people feel strongly that they are nice or horrible, but the categories are too vague to organise society around.

Do you own a dictionary? Or I’m sure google could assist, if you want definitions

SidewaysOtter · 27/04/2025 11:32

Namechangeforobviousreasons100 · 27/04/2025 10:47

I think that’s a rather simplistic, black and white view

Why?

Or have you just arrived here to scold us women for being wrong generally?

frenchnoodle · 27/04/2025 11:32

Namechangeforobviousreasons100 · 27/04/2025 11:31

Do you own a dictionary? Or I’m sure google could assist, if you want definitions

So that a no then for descriptions from you.

And
Bamb the conversation is shut down...

Namechangeforobviousreasons100 · 27/04/2025 11:33

Helleofabore · 27/04/2025 11:29

Hasn’t separately LGB from the other letters already been tested in the charity commission ?

from a quick look at the tribunal decision I don’t think that’s point was raised

Namechangeforobviousreasons100 · 27/04/2025 11:35

SidewaysOtter · 27/04/2025 11:32

Why?

Or have you just arrived here to scold us women for being wrong generally?

I don’t think I was scolding, just expressing my own view. Whether or not I am talking to women has nothing to do with it.

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