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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Please hold my hand. My daughter has drunk the koolaid, and I’m more upset & angry than I think I have ever been. (SC ruling)

285 replies

MarvellousMonsters · 19/04/2025 13:08

This will be long, so I apologise in advance. I find myself in a grey area between radfems and woke-maidens. I don’t hate trans people, I don’t hate anyone, although as a woman in my 50s I’ve had enough male fuckwittery in my life to have a very low opinion of men in general. I do believe that there are some people with such intense dysphoria that counselling and support are not enough and surgical transition is their best solution, but I don’t believe anyone can change sex, or is born in the wrong body.

That said, I detest gender stereotypes and the confusion of sex & gender, I’m the generation of women that fought really hard on a day to day level to reject these stupid made up rules about what girls can and can’t do/wear/think, and seeing the ‘men in a dress’ become accepted as that meaning they are women is a huge step backwards, and it makes me furious.

I honestly don’t care who wears what, if a man wants to wear dresses and make up, that’s fine. I’ve spent the last 15-20 years in t-shirts and jeans, no make up etc, so I don’t see why men can’t wear skirts if they want to. As Eddie Izzard used to say, they aren’t women’s clothes, they are my clothes. (So disappointed that Eddie has now claimed to be Suzie)

I am not a dress.

I genuinely don’t care about sharing spaces like toilets, it’s possible to create safe unisex toilets, the focus on this is a distraction and needs to stop. But when men claim to identify as women and skew crime statistics, that bothers me. Men who claim to identify as women and try to insist that lesbians should date them, that’s controlling and gross. Hospital wards and bays are segregated for a reason, and demanding we use she/her pronouns doesn’t mean a man should be put in a bed in a women’s bay. Same with any communal changing area, be it the gym or a shop fitting room. Women don’t have a penis, it’s really that simple.

This morning the SC ruling was mentioned briefly and my adult daughter is furious with it. She claims it’s a step backwards, that it will cause hate crimes and violence towards trans people, that anyone who supports it is a hateful bigot and wishes harm on a vulnerable minority. I tried to calmly explain to her that no laws have been changed, only clarified, and that trans people haven’t lost any rights, nor will any MtF prisoners be immediately transferred to male prisons to be raped and murdered by the other prisoners. Women aren’t going to be randomly strip-searched by male police officers who will claim they thought it was a man, etc. She just refuses to believe that women’s safe spaces need to be just for actual biological women, because she believes trans women don’t pose a threat, and even when I explained that most trans identifying MtF don’t have surgery etc and are still fully functioning males, and showed her examples of MtF assaulting women, she won’t accept that the actions of these men mean that we should be able to hold safe spaces based on biology. I tried to explain that I understand that trans people are vulnerable to hate crimes etc, and that we need to take steps to keep them safe, but not at the expense of women. We’ve had a long and very heated argument where she has accused me of being a bigot and a bunch of other incredibly hurtful things, mostly by refusing to accept that there is a toxic sub-set of (mostly MtF) TRAs that are actually autogynephiles/INCELs with misogyny at their core, and that these people threaten actual physical harm to anyone (like JKR) who dares to question their claims of womanhood.

Help me. Help me find a way to reach her. She’s an intelligent educated young woman who has been raised with feminist values, I have modelled non-stereotypical behaviours and given her complete freedom to choose her direction in life, with no expectations or limitations based on her sex. I’m genuinely appalled to hear this garbage coming from her.

OP posts:
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5
NoIAmTheNewQueenofMN · 19/04/2025 15:28

Sorry, she's lost

YourAmplePlumPoster · 19/04/2025 15:29

I have a woke leftie friend like your daughter who said the same things until what was obviously a man pretending to be a woman started using her changing room at the gym and very obviously leering at the undressed females. The other women said they felt uncomfortable and threatened and so does she. Now she knows what I've been ranting about.

Rockhopper1 · 19/04/2025 15:30

Holding your hand x
None of us like admitting we’ve got things wrong . She experiences a huge force from society on all sides telling her ‘trans women are women ‘ . That their feelings are more important than any dangers or disadvantages women face from the implementation of such nonsense . She will be far more exposed to confused young people with trans & bi ‘ identities ‘ than AGPs who as individuals will arouse her protective instincts.

It’s also really hard for ( particularly young ) women to accept so many men seem to have a visceral dislike of women .

Young women face appalling misogyny of the Tate/ porn variety but don’t have the lived experience of going through the stupid battles we did .
I remember my Mother not being allowed her own bank account . Women not being allowed to run marathons , endless discussions about whether women had sufficient gravitas to be allowed to present the news on TV . The girls in my year at Uni had to get higher grades than the boys to be admitted …
Trans rights activism it seems to me , from studying Jennifer Bilek’s work , arose from the validation of the fetish of several billionaires ( Jennifer Pritzker et al ) who bankrolled this and pushed it at kids on internet forums before their parents knew what was going on , 15 or so years ago .
It has flourished because it benefits all straight men indirectly by reintroducing control over women .
These facts will become apparent to many more people as time goes on . The problem atm is one has to dig for them .
I would really endorse other posters here who’ve suggested backing off the topic and giving her time to think .
Also , as a pp suggested , calmly asking her to explain how she sees things if the topic does come up . ‘What is a woman ?’ is really hard to answer without reverting to sexist stereotypes.

Theunamedcat · 19/04/2025 15:31

MarvellousMonsters · 19/04/2025 13:31

She is a university graduate, yes, but we are very working class, so I’m not sure if that works for us.

Same here but my DD is totally captured fortunately she has only ever met kind and respectful transpeople

We don't discuss it I got rid of her harry Potter Dvds recently and she began to lament that she couldn't POSSIBLY enjoy them now after "what she said" I just replied keep or no? I don't get into it with her she tries she fails the last time I said that I was disappointed that she refused to come up with any comprehensive argument other than "trust me bro" I thought she would blow a gasket

Jewel52 · 19/04/2025 15:34

MarvellousMonsters · 19/04/2025 13:42

Her reasoning was that we should accept trans women into our spaces so that they are safe. She couldn’t/wouldn’t accept that the fact that some of those fully male bodied trans women pose a threat to women means that we needs a third space. He argument was those third spaces don’t exist so we need to keep them with women, and that segregation is wrong

I think this is a more complex area than you’re suggesting and your assumption is that you are just obviously in the right which must be so patronising for your dd. It’s normal to have strident views at her stage and shows she’s a reflective person.

Like you, I’m in my fifties and am generally scared about speaking about trans rights as I inadvertently get pronouns wrong etc but I see merit in both sides of the debate and don’t share your casual convictions.

i’m very aware that women have had lesser power in most areas of life and where resources are in scarce supply we will tend to turn on each other. I’m not sure I’m explaining myself fully but part of me is uncomfortable about celebrating a victory over a minority who have been disrespected and discriminated against.

ThatsNotMyTeen · 19/04/2025 15:34

Why bother? Just leave her to it. Her ranting isn’t going to change anything. If she starts on again just say “I dont agree with you” and leave it that.

Errahstop · 19/04/2025 15:36

What is all this 'captured' nonsense. Have you stopped.to consider that this generation genuinely feel differently about trans people than you do? The bile spewed on here about trans people is so nasty but I know I'm pissing into the wind by suggesting you just live and let live. If a public toilet is your 'safe space' then you have bigger problems than being a bigot.

Thepeopleversuswork · 19/04/2025 15:37

My DD isn't as old as yours but many of her peers are very much 'captured' in this way and a couple of her (female) peers now identify as male (though not, as yet and thankfully, my DD).

As someone who is essentially gender critical but not hostile to trans people, I find it excruciating and frustrating but I also have chosen not to register my frustration in discussion with her and to keep everything as calm and open as I can. And to superficially pretend that I will engage with the debate if only to debunk it. But I won't allow myself to be too riled up by it.

Partly because I know if I become too strident I know it will simply be seen as an example of how "boomers" (actually Gen X) don't get it and are parroting trans-phobic rhetoric. And will have the effect of pushing her in the other direction.

Partly because some people I know have gone to the other extreme in their alliance with gender critical feminism to the extent that they have become utterly obsessed. And while I do fundamentally agree with their position, I don't believe that the slightly hysterical militancy of some sections of this movement does itself any favours with this generation. It just serves to re-entrench their view that we are bigoted.

And ultimately because I feel compassion for any teenager or young person who has convinced themselves that changing their "gender" will solve any of their problems. Yes they've been captured and manipulated, but making them feel that they are scorned by their parents and the responsible adults in their lives is not going to help them come back into the fold.

I feel for you though OP. I feel genuinely worried about it.

Arran2024 · 19/04/2025 15:38

Sabire9 · 19/04/2025 15:10

Reminds me of all the discussions around Section 28 in the 1980's. People used to argue that boys would feel predated upon and unsafe if they knew their male teachers were gay.

Do you agree - that boys might feel unsafe getting changed for PE if they had an out gay teacher supervising their showers or changing area?

What does that have to do with a fully grown man suddenly announcing he's a woman?!!

Can you not see how ridiculous it is? And he gets straight into women's spaces just on his say so?

Women are the ones at risk from males, which is why we have dedicated spaces. This need has not reduced - in fact, listening to the radio earlier about the behaviour of boys in school (at the teachers' conference), it is clear that we need those spaces more than ever.

Redorangehaze · 19/04/2025 15:39

Pigeon31 · 19/04/2025 14:23

She's a liberal feminist. You don't have to agree with her on everything but you should be proud of having raised a daughter who is willing to stand up for her beliefs, which are no less valid than yours.

Also we prefer liberal feminist to woke maiden, thx.

*which are no less valid that yours.'

See, this is the problem with liberal feminism and trans ideology. Beliefs are not 'valid' just because you declare them to be. Opinions have validity if they are coherent, have internal consistency and can be backed up with hard evidence and data. On all these counts, TWAW ideology fails. The supreme court ruling used the word ' incoherent' repeatedly about the TWAW position in relation to single sex services.

And it doesn't at all sound like OP's daughter was able to, 'stand up for her beliefs' .People who are able to 'stand up for their beliefs' are people who are able to engage in reasoned and logical debate in which they are able to defend their position. OPs daughter resorted to childish name calling.

Perhaps name calling is what liberal feminism calls ' standing up for your beliefs' but I, and I hope all reasonable adults, do not.

maltravers · 19/04/2025 15:41

My sons know my GC views and reasoning, but I don’t discuss it with them unless they raise it. I certainly wouldn’t conceal my GC opinions, but I am careful and reasoned about how I couch them. One is secretly a terf I think, the other, a sweetie, has been persuaded to “be kind”. He knows my views, but also sees me being tolerant and respectful about the TW in my office. Hopefully he sees that things are not black and white and those on the other side to him are not terrible bigots.

Social death amongst your peers is a big ask. I don’t see the point in creating tension and unhappiness with them, this is one for the real adults (who created the situation) to resolve and hopefully they will. The SC judgment is a huge advance in this regard I hope and believe.

tothesea · 19/04/2025 15:42

Errahstop · 19/04/2025 15:36

What is all this 'captured' nonsense. Have you stopped.to consider that this generation genuinely feel differently about trans people than you do? The bile spewed on here about trans people is so nasty but I know I'm pissing into the wind by suggesting you just live and let live. If a public toilet is your 'safe space' then you have bigger problems than being a bigot.

See this is the kind of reaction that used to upset me..being called nasty and a bigot for not wanting men in single sex spaces (not safe space that’s not the term) and not just toilets either as I’m sure you are already aware.

Anyway nowadays I just think

Grow up.

Arran2024 · 19/04/2025 15:42

Errahstop · 19/04/2025 15:36

What is all this 'captured' nonsense. Have you stopped.to consider that this generation genuinely feel differently about trans people than you do? The bile spewed on here about trans people is so nasty but I know I'm pissing into the wind by suggesting you just live and let live. If a public toilet is your 'safe space' then you have bigger problems than being a bigot.

My daughters are 25 and 27. I adopted them when they were 2 and 3. Their lives in their birth family were shocking and they suffer the ongoing effects every single day.

They are hugely anxious in public places and yes, a public toilet IS often their safe space. So don't glibly tell me that this doesn't matter, that it's bigoted to expect men to keep out, that their rights to go out and feel safe don't matter.

nadine90 · 19/04/2025 15:46

Did/do you agree with all of your parents views on things? How would you have reacted to your parents trying to convince you over to their way of thinking?
Just don’t discuss it, you are both allowed to have your own opinions. Trying to change her mind (especially as her parent) won’t work and will only chip away at your relationship.

Sweetpeasaremadeforbees · 19/04/2025 15:48

We don't discuss it I got rid of her harry Potter Dvds recently and she began to lament that she couldn't POSSIBLY enjoy them now after "what she said" I just replied keep or no?

My DD handed me a box of HP books a couple of years ago and said she couldn't bear to keep them and could I take them to a charity shop. I just said l would after I'd checked on Ebay that they weren't worth anything because they were earlier editions from charity shops. I think she also expected further comment and was slightly disappointed!

Sabire9 · 19/04/2025 15:49

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

StMarie4me · 19/04/2025 15:50

MarvellousMonsters · 19/04/2025 13:08

This will be long, so I apologise in advance. I find myself in a grey area between radfems and woke-maidens. I don’t hate trans people, I don’t hate anyone, although as a woman in my 50s I’ve had enough male fuckwittery in my life to have a very low opinion of men in general. I do believe that there are some people with such intense dysphoria that counselling and support are not enough and surgical transition is their best solution, but I don’t believe anyone can change sex, or is born in the wrong body.

That said, I detest gender stereotypes and the confusion of sex & gender, I’m the generation of women that fought really hard on a day to day level to reject these stupid made up rules about what girls can and can’t do/wear/think, and seeing the ‘men in a dress’ become accepted as that meaning they are women is a huge step backwards, and it makes me furious.

I honestly don’t care who wears what, if a man wants to wear dresses and make up, that’s fine. I’ve spent the last 15-20 years in t-shirts and jeans, no make up etc, so I don’t see why men can’t wear skirts if they want to. As Eddie Izzard used to say, they aren’t women’s clothes, they are my clothes. (So disappointed that Eddie has now claimed to be Suzie)

I am not a dress.

I genuinely don’t care about sharing spaces like toilets, it’s possible to create safe unisex toilets, the focus on this is a distraction and needs to stop. But when men claim to identify as women and skew crime statistics, that bothers me. Men who claim to identify as women and try to insist that lesbians should date them, that’s controlling and gross. Hospital wards and bays are segregated for a reason, and demanding we use she/her pronouns doesn’t mean a man should be put in a bed in a women’s bay. Same with any communal changing area, be it the gym or a shop fitting room. Women don’t have a penis, it’s really that simple.

This morning the SC ruling was mentioned briefly and my adult daughter is furious with it. She claims it’s a step backwards, that it will cause hate crimes and violence towards trans people, that anyone who supports it is a hateful bigot and wishes harm on a vulnerable minority. I tried to calmly explain to her that no laws have been changed, only clarified, and that trans people haven’t lost any rights, nor will any MtF prisoners be immediately transferred to male prisons to be raped and murdered by the other prisoners. Women aren’t going to be randomly strip-searched by male police officers who will claim they thought it was a man, etc. She just refuses to believe that women’s safe spaces need to be just for actual biological women, because she believes trans women don’t pose a threat, and even when I explained that most trans identifying MtF don’t have surgery etc and are still fully functioning males, and showed her examples of MtF assaulting women, she won’t accept that the actions of these men mean that we should be able to hold safe spaces based on biology. I tried to explain that I understand that trans people are vulnerable to hate crimes etc, and that we need to take steps to keep them safe, but not at the expense of women. We’ve had a long and very heated argument where she has accused me of being a bigot and a bunch of other incredibly hurtful things, mostly by refusing to accept that there is a toxic sub-set of (mostly MtF) TRAs that are actually autogynephiles/INCELs with misogyny at their core, and that these people threaten actual physical harm to anyone (like JKR) who dares to question their claims of womanhood.

Help me. Help me find a way to reach her. She’s an intelligent educated young woman who has been raised with feminist values, I have modelled non-stereotypical behaviours and given her complete freedom to choose her direction in life, with no expectations or limitations based on her sex. I’m genuinely appalled to hear this garbage coming from her.

I cannot even begin to to read your post because of the ridiculous hyperbole in the title. That you can be so flippant about mass murder, regardless of people’s views on transgender. You should be very very ashamed.

TheWombatleague · 19/04/2025 15:51

ArtTheClown · 19/04/2025 14:00

I'll be honest, I don't think there's any level of dysphoria that should be treated with hormones and surgery. It's somehow become an accepted treatment where imo it really really shouldn't be.

Maybe, I don't know, but are you sure? https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10027312/

Suicide-Related Outcomes Following Gender-Affirming Treatment: A Review - PMC

Gender-affirming treatment remains a topic of controversy; of particular concern is whether gender-affirming treatment reduces suicidality. A narrative review was undertaken evaluating suicide-related outcomes following gender-affirming surgery, ...

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10027312/

tothesea · 19/04/2025 15:52

It’s called safeguarding you may have heard of it.
Edit: in response to Sabire9

ToutesetBonne · 19/04/2025 15:53

Shimmyshimmycocobop · 19/04/2025 13:22

I also used to have "debates" about this with DS1which when threatened to turn into an argument I backed off, I didn't feel it worth falling out with my children and knew that it was social suicide for them to espouse my views.
DS1 has now come over to my way of thinking and as a gay man is exposed to a lot of this more than I am.
DS2 is at a v woke University so I don't expect him to agree with me but hopeful that sanity or common sense will prevail when he is older.
As @TheSecondMrsCampbellBlack says he knows my views .

'....knew that it was social suicide for them to espouse my views.'

And there we have it. This is the issue for our young people. Many that I speak to in a one-to-one discussion totally agree with the OP, but daren't say so among their peers/in their work situation.

Rachelsthorns · 19/04/2025 15:53

MarvellousMonsters · 19/04/2025 13:45

@Catlady63 I do feel like I’ve failed. And the level of contempt and disrespect in the way she spoke to me was awful.

That is not OK.

She may disagree with you, she may hold different opinions to yours, but an adult does not treat her own mother with disrespect and contempt over a difference of opinion.

It’s the behaviour of a spoiled child.

Catlady63 · 19/04/2025 15:56

TheWombatleague · 19/04/2025 15:24

The point of University education is that you're not "spoon fed" ideas, but given the tools to develop your own critical thinking skills. This increases with the levels of postgraduate study.

That's why the more educated tend to be more progressive in their views, are less likely to believe in a god and don't tend to post prejudice as if it were fact.

But once you apply critical thinking to the concept that Transwomen are Women, the argument collaspes. Which is just what happened in the Supreme Court. The position has been disproven, so why would bright critical thinkers still believe it?

I think it's because it's a matter of blind faith rather than reasoned argument, which is why I'm dissapointed that my daughter is not thinking rationally about this. I'd feel the same if she was anti-vax.

Or do you believe that the members of the Supreme Court not capable of critical reasoning or rational thought?

Do you think Parliament is going to rush to change the Equality Act to state that women includes transmen?

Rockhopper1 · 19/04/2025 15:57

Conflating this debate with racism or the rights of same sex attracted people as a few previous posters do here & in other threads is absolutely disgusting.
That people from people from all ethnic backgrounds, or who are lesbian , gay or bi should have equal rights with everyone else is an absolute given for me . I lived through and fought alongside people who were discriminated against for these nonsense reasons.
Calling left wing feminists ‘ bigots ‘ because we can see the huge damage being caused to women and children by trans rights activism really won’t wash I’m afraid .

anyolddinosaur · 19/04/2025 15:57

"people can’t be reasoned out of positions that they didn’t reason themselves into"

The problem is that your daughter is a bigot who will not listen to any different point of view - the real definition of a bigot being a refusal to consider other points of view. Really she knows that her views are irrational but she has been indoctrinated into these luxury beliefs. it is very much a class issue as most young women who have not been protected know just what a danger men can be.

Back away from her for a time - not just on this issue but to show her that you are angry with the way she spoke to you about it. You can be there for her if she needs you but dont listen to abuse.

TeaAndCock · 19/04/2025 15:58

I imagine the reason she spoke to you with such contempt is because there’s been a fine line between protecting women’s rights (good) and bigotry towards trans people (bad), the sc ruling helps the former but we need to be careful of the latter, whether these people have these issues due to poor mental health or whatever the reason, they exist and always have.
There is a minority within their minority, of men who will take advantage of the situation, perverts who are aroused by dressing as women etc but these people are not even genuinely trans and if that way inclined men will find a way to abuse women regardless. You might not like gender stereotypes and neither do I really but live and let live, some people feel like they are/were in the wrong body and that’s life.