Please hold my hand. My daughter has drunk the koolaid, and I’m more upset & angry than I think I have ever been. (SC ruling)

[MarvellousMonsters]

This will be long, so I apologise in advance. I find myself in a grey area between radfems and woke-maidens. I don’t hate trans people, I don’t hate anyone, although as a woman in my 50s I’ve had enough male fuckwittery in my life to have a very low opinion of men in general. I do believe that there are some people with such intense dysphoria that counselling and support are not enough and surgical transition is their best solution, but I don’t believe anyone can change sex, or is born in the wrong body.

That said, I detest gender stereotypes and the confusion of sex & gender, I’m the generation of women that fought really hard on a day to day level to reject these stupid made up rules about what girls can and can’t do/wear/think, and seeing the ‘men in a dress’ become accepted as that meaning they are women is a huge step backwards, and it makes me furious.

I honestly don’t care who wears what, if a man wants to wear dresses and make up, that’s fine. I’ve spent the last 15-20 years in t-shirts and jeans, no make up etc, so I don’t see why men can’t wear skirts if they want to. As Eddie Izzard used to say, they aren’t women’s clothes, they are my clothes. (So disappointed that Eddie has now claimed to be Suzie)

I am not a dress.

I genuinely don’t care about sharing spaces like toilets, it’s possible to create safe unisex toilets, the focus on this is a distraction and needs to stop. But when men claim to identify as women and skew crime statistics, that bothers me. Men who claim to identify as women and try to insist that lesbians should date them, that’s controlling and gross. Hospital wards and bays are segregated for a reason, and demanding we use she/her pronouns doesn’t mean a man should be put in a bed in a women’s bay. Same with any communal changing area, be it the gym or a shop fitting room. Women don’t have a penis, it’s really that simple.

This morning the SC ruling was mentioned briefly and my adult daughter is furious with it. She claims it’s a step backwards, that it will cause hate crimes and violence towards trans people, that anyone who supports it is a hateful bigot and wishes harm on a vulnerable minority. I tried to calmly explain to her that no laws have been changed, only clarified, and that trans people haven’t lost any rights, nor will any MtF prisoners be immediately transferred to male prisons to be raped and murdered by the other prisoners. Women aren’t going to be randomly strip-searched by male police officers who will claim they thought it was a man, etc. She just refuses to believe that women’s safe spaces need to be just for actual biological women, because she believes trans women don’t pose a threat, and even when I explained that most trans identifying MtF don’t have surgery etc and are still fully functioning males, and showed her examples of MtF assaulting women, she won’t accept that the actions of these men mean that we should be able to hold safe spaces based on biology. I tried to explain that I understand that trans people are vulnerable to hate crimes etc, and that we need to take steps to keep them safe, but not at the expense of women. We’ve had a long and very heated argument where she has accused me of being a bigot and a bunch of other incredibly hurtful things, mostly by refusing to accept that there is a toxic sub-set of (mostly MtF) TRAs that are actually autogynephiles/INCELs with misogyny at their core, and that these people threaten actual physical harm to anyone (like JKR) who dares to question their claims of womanhood.

Help me. Help me find a way to reach her. She’s an intelligent educated young woman who has been raised with feminist values, I have modelled non-stereotypical behaviours and given her complete freedom to choose her direction in life, with no expectations or limitations based on her sex. I’m genuinely appalled to hear this garbage coming from her.

It's a very difficult subject to discuss because of course nobody actually believes that males can become females but at the same time they've been told that they're horrible people if they dont believe it.

So you think you're making reasonable points to your daughter but what she's hearing is "I will force you to become a horrible person, a bigot, who hates people that are different".

For the moment, agree to disagree. There is no point in discussing it at this point.

My own daughter who is 20 treats it in the way she once treated Father Christmas - she knows its not real but finds it easier to pretend she does. She knows I won't join in the pretence but it doesn't bother her and if I mention anything to do with it she just rolls her eyes.

It's defensive.

I think often people get disproportionately angry because of a lurking cognitive dissonance.

Give her time and space to work things through for herself.

And meanwhile, take care of yourself. Parenting is bloody hard sometimes.

Stop trying to make her drink your kookaid. You’re a hypocrite. Let her have her beliefs and you keep yours

As a starting point, has she actually read the SC judgment? If she does she will see that the judgment is very sympathetic to trans people and finishes by saying that there likely should be a space for trans people on public boards (it just shouldn't be the space designated for women)

@MarvellousMonsters
Your OP also shows that this is a bit of a hobby horse for you, and something that you've clearly spent a lot of time talking about and thinking about. I suspect you've spent a lot of time on TERF friendly social media reading stories about transgender people who've been involved in crimes against women. Your OP is seething with contempt and pity for transgender people, who you mostly frame as dangerous people who really just enjoy 'dressing up' as women.

Maybe that's what your daughter is picking up on.

I feel the same way as your daughter when I have to listen to people who refer to 'boat people', 'being invaded by men of fighting age', 'illegals' and 'grooming gangs' when they're explaining why they think we should all be voting for Reform.

Does she have friends that are trans? I went though to his with my teen DD 4 years ago as 1) she had a trans friend and 2) her English teacher was a “Demi girl” (fuck knows 🤷🏼‍♀️) so she got sucked into the cult. Plus she’s autistic so believes everyone but her mother. I sat her down and laid out the scientific facts, I told her I’d never be mean to her friend, that her teacher is being very inappropriate by having kids stay after class to talk about these issues but men cannot be women and vice versa. I think she was torn between being a good friend and biological reality. After our chat she managed to be both a friend and to understand that her friend did not become female by wearing a skirt. She’s quite GC now and hates it when women lose out in sports.

Don’t fall out with your daughter over it. Agree to disagree and don’t discuss it if it isn’t something immediately effecting your lives.

Ask her to cast her mind back to her school days. Say her male PE teacher suddenly decided over the weekend he now identifies as female and on Monday goes to supervise the girls changing rooms. Is she ok with him watching her change?

@HPFA

"It's a very difficult subject to discuss because of course nobody actually believes that males can become females but at the same time they've been told that they're horrible people if they dont believe it."

Everyone who supports transgender rights knows that purpose of gender affirming care is to make the outside of a person feel more congruent with their sense of gender identity, which of course is not always the same as a person's biological sex.

The accusation 'you think males can become females' and strident demands to answer the question 'WHAT'S A WOMAN?' - these are not the gotchas you think they are, except when you're posting on the Daily Mail's comment page.

Refer her to actual trans people who agree with you op.

There are plenty that don't believe men are women.

Buck Angel for a start.

Sensible trans people who make it very clear that these new ate trans activists are a cult and don't speak for most trans individuals.

There's also Marcus (goes by:theoffensivetranny on YouTube). And Blair white.

I am the same as you. I honestly don't care about someone's pronouns. I will happily call my trans woman friend 'her'. It's just a word. I also helped her choose clothes etc.

I also am not as bothered about single sex spaces - I would prefer female only dorms, but it's not the end of the world. I share unisex regularly.

I also feel sorry for people who have severe gender dysphoria and I watched a video on youtube with toxic men, commenting on 'feminine' men, and I got it (briefly). I also don't think that I have an issue with non-binary, they aren't trying to claim to be something that they are not, just that they don't feel that they are the sex that they were born as, probably because of societal reasons.

However, no matter how much the dysphoria, I will not and will never believe that trans people ARE the opposite sex (don't get me wrong, I did previously, when it was almost claimed that people CAN change their sex - like 15 years ago). I think that the TRA movement has almost shot themselves in the foot by trying to convince people that they ARE the opposite sex. It has backfired.

There’s been a few posts on my Facebook page from the young people I know about this. I find it interesting that they feel the need to make a public declaration - perhaps because it is so controversial. I have friends who are vigorously and vocally on both ‘sides’. I’m interested, and have read a great deal, but unless I trained myself in the art of debate, I wouldn’t engage in it much with any of them.

Reminds me of all the discussions around Section 28 in the 1980's. People used to argue that boys would feel predated upon and unsafe if they knew their male teachers were gay.

Do you agree - that boys might feel unsafe getting changed for PE if they had an out gay teacher supervising their showers or changing area?

You can't talk to someone who does not want to listen. She has been indoctrinated in a climate that holds simplistic view of 'good' and 'bad' views that equal 'good' and 'bad' people. Hence her contempt. If she starts to grow out of this, she may wish to listen to other views to help her reach a view that is genuinely her own based on listening to all viewpoints. So I would say that if she even wants to hear your position you are willing to talk it through with her. And leave it at that.

If that day even comes I would not make this about trans people, as its not. When it comes to single sex spaces its about men, regardless of how they identify. There is no gate keeping of ' true trans' all men can come in, including the predatory ones regardless of whether or not they have an 'identity.' Single sex spaces are about sex. Keep it to that.

Don't argue when you cannot win but maybe point out the original gay and lesbian community had to fight for recognition which they (rightfully) achieved (during and after the AIDS era) without insults to women, death threats, and invading single sex spaces already hard won by women (who also had to fight for the right to vote, open a bank account without a man, own a home etc).

Trans people are not fighters for their rights - they are demanders of other people's.

'My own daughter who is 20 treats it in the way she once treated Father Christmas - she knows its not real but finds it easier to pretend she does. She knows I won't join in the pretence but it doesn't bother her and if I mention anything to do with it she just rolls her eyes.'

I used this exact argument with my friend who thinks that I am a Nazi Terf. I told him that I just lie/go along with the belief that the trans person has even though I don't believe it. Same with my religious friend. I don't believe in Allah but I am not going to tell her that, nor does she expect that I should believe in Allah (or God, but I don't have many Christian friends who probably actually believe in God)

She just needs to mature a little more.

My DS are 17 & 19 and have no issue with trans people. They can see both sides. They can see women need safe spaces. There’s no extreme opinions on this from them and I’m glad. The eldest is at uni and there is a large mix of folk including trans people.

He has a good mix of friends with different races, religions, and sexual orientation. He just shrugs and says “I’m friends with those I get on with. It’s that simple. People are people and we just have a laugh together, work hard together and mind our own business.”

I have a trans female sibling (for the past 16 years) so have a bit of a clue.

Op, I just wouldn't bother discussing it with her. My 18 yo has fallen for a lot of the bollocks mostly because it's been dragged into the LGB rights movement. She's anti JKR and thinks the sun shines out of David Tennant and his vile wife's arses.

But, we generally have a pretty good relationship, we've just mutually decided that our views on this issue are completely different. I think the fact that she doesn't see the danger in men going into women's spaces means that so far she hasn't been exposed to male harassment which to me as her mum, is a relief, but one day sadly, statistically she probably will be. Which scares me because it's going to come as a huge shock.

Try changing tack. Don’t mention women. Say that you’re surprised that she’d be so unkind as to deny trans men the protection of having it clarified that the PC of Pregnancy/Maternity applies to them. Speak gently, do a puzzled expression. This should reduce her anger and make her stop and think.

As for toilets, again keep the tone gentle and interested, and ask her what other men she thinks women’s toilets should be a refuge for: gay men? elderly men? disabled men? Then say you’re a little disappointed that she thinks so little of men that she assumes they won’t tolerate anyone a bit different.

If she persists in shouting TWAW, then ask her to elaborate. Watch her tie herself in knots but say very little, except to gently ask questions which highlight the illogical rubbish she’s spouting.

When I first discussed this with my DD, she was outraged at what I said and got quite heated. I left it because she was really worked up, but a year or so after that we had cause to discuss it briefly again in relation to some news story, and her views had subtly changed as had her tone, which was far, far less angry.

There really are some absolutely brilliant responses from posters on here. Explanations are brilliant 🤩

I'm like this, too. Except, I love a debate and sometimes will "champion" the opposite of my first held position. Thing is, the debate itself has become "toxic", politicised, radicalised and it is hard to raise a hand and ask questions lest the discussion go sideways with insults thrown in. So, this is my first and probably last post on this board. 😓

Back to OP. Putting aside the topic that you and DD are discussing, it sounds like you have brought up a young woman who feels passionately and strongly about her chosen cause. Just as perhaps you do? And maybe she is unable to see subtlety and nuance in debates because it is hard to do that when you believe 100% in your cause. When a group feels under attack, they tend to double down rather than "see the light".

A way forward would be to ask her why she thinks the way she does. I'm pretty sure you are doing that already but when we feel someone's view is "wrong" we tend to want to tell them why and persuade them to our line of thinking. Having a healthy respect for alternative viewpoints does not diminish your own commitment, of course. But it can allow for some common ground to be found and the heat to dissipate when it becomes frustrating and upsetting.

Maybe share this table with her OP.
And point out to her that if she can't disagree agreeably with you, then you will have to regard her views with the same contempt and disrespect with which she treated yours.

The point of University education is that you're not "spoon fed" ideas, but given the tools to develop your own critical thinking skills. This increases with the levels of postgraduate study.

That's why the more educated tend to be more progressive in their views, are less likely to believe in a god and don't tend to post prejudice as if it were fact.

Everybody doesn't know that.

I've become very used to being given perfect explanations of the gender critical position by people who think they're on the other side. I've read many articles by people trying to use the "correct" language which invariably end up in a tangle as the author inadvertently reveals that they know exactly what sex is.

I think you have set out your position and beliefs very well here and you sound extremely well informed and reasonable. Your dd will continue to believe whatever she wants but take heart in the fact that she will most likely change her views in time or at recognise that yours are perfectly reasonable. I have 4 dds, the eldest had also swallowed the koolaid and we could never have a conversation without her calling me a bigot. However recently an influencer that she follows has tried to set up a business that is solely for women and she has been ostracised to a degree that has shocked my dd into seeing it from another angle.