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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Please hold my hand. My daughter has drunk the koolaid, and I’m more upset & angry than I think I have ever been. (SC ruling)

285 replies

MarvellousMonsters · 19/04/2025 13:08

This will be long, so I apologise in advance. I find myself in a grey area between radfems and woke-maidens. I don’t hate trans people, I don’t hate anyone, although as a woman in my 50s I’ve had enough male fuckwittery in my life to have a very low opinion of men in general. I do believe that there are some people with such intense dysphoria that counselling and support are not enough and surgical transition is their best solution, but I don’t believe anyone can change sex, or is born in the wrong body.

That said, I detest gender stereotypes and the confusion of sex & gender, I’m the generation of women that fought really hard on a day to day level to reject these stupid made up rules about what girls can and can’t do/wear/think, and seeing the ‘men in a dress’ become accepted as that meaning they are women is a huge step backwards, and it makes me furious.

I honestly don’t care who wears what, if a man wants to wear dresses and make up, that’s fine. I’ve spent the last 15-20 years in t-shirts and jeans, no make up etc, so I don’t see why men can’t wear skirts if they want to. As Eddie Izzard used to say, they aren’t women’s clothes, they are my clothes. (So disappointed that Eddie has now claimed to be Suzie)

I am not a dress.

I genuinely don’t care about sharing spaces like toilets, it’s possible to create safe unisex toilets, the focus on this is a distraction and needs to stop. But when men claim to identify as women and skew crime statistics, that bothers me. Men who claim to identify as women and try to insist that lesbians should date them, that’s controlling and gross. Hospital wards and bays are segregated for a reason, and demanding we use she/her pronouns doesn’t mean a man should be put in a bed in a women’s bay. Same with any communal changing area, be it the gym or a shop fitting room. Women don’t have a penis, it’s really that simple.

This morning the SC ruling was mentioned briefly and my adult daughter is furious with it. She claims it’s a step backwards, that it will cause hate crimes and violence towards trans people, that anyone who supports it is a hateful bigot and wishes harm on a vulnerable minority. I tried to calmly explain to her that no laws have been changed, only clarified, and that trans people haven’t lost any rights, nor will any MtF prisoners be immediately transferred to male prisons to be raped and murdered by the other prisoners. Women aren’t going to be randomly strip-searched by male police officers who will claim they thought it was a man, etc. She just refuses to believe that women’s safe spaces need to be just for actual biological women, because she believes trans women don’t pose a threat, and even when I explained that most trans identifying MtF don’t have surgery etc and are still fully functioning males, and showed her examples of MtF assaulting women, she won’t accept that the actions of these men mean that we should be able to hold safe spaces based on biology. I tried to explain that I understand that trans people are vulnerable to hate crimes etc, and that we need to take steps to keep them safe, but not at the expense of women. We’ve had a long and very heated argument where she has accused me of being a bigot and a bunch of other incredibly hurtful things, mostly by refusing to accept that there is a toxic sub-set of (mostly MtF) TRAs that are actually autogynephiles/INCELs with misogyny at their core, and that these people threaten actual physical harm to anyone (like JKR) who dares to question their claims of womanhood.

Help me. Help me find a way to reach her. She’s an intelligent educated young woman who has been raised with feminist values, I have modelled non-stereotypical behaviours and given her complete freedom to choose her direction in life, with no expectations or limitations based on her sex. I’m genuinely appalled to hear this garbage coming from her.

OP posts:
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Pigeon31 · 19/04/2025 14:23

She's a liberal feminist. You don't have to agree with her on everything but you should be proud of having raised a daughter who is willing to stand up for her beliefs, which are no less valid than yours.

Also we prefer liberal feminist to woke maiden, thx.

ThisFluentBiscuit · 19/04/2025 14:24

This is a generational clash. Young people have always been at odds with their parents over social issues.

Imo, it's not worth falling out with family over. Don't be more upset and angry than you've ever been, OP! You are both allowed your views, and you have to remember that your DD is absolutely marinated in those views via her peer group. Rowling has had just the same with the three Potter actors. Generational differences. I do wonder if JK has the same issues with her kids that you're having with your DD.

Lovelyview · 19/04/2025 14:26

Catlady63 · 19/04/2025 14:18

I don't think the problem is that they're disagreeing over an issue, it's the way OPs daughter is refusing to engage in any meaningful way.

It is dissapointing when as a feminist mother your daughter strongly supports a view that is at odds with what you believe in. When they refuse to engage with evidence and see you as the enemy, it's very dissapointing.

But of course we still love our daughters, we just hope they'll be more open to evidence and not retreat to emotion.

Not talking about it helps - my daughter doesn't talk to me about this anymore, but isn't as dogmatic anymore if I refer to an obviously female non-binaru person as 'her' rather than 'they'.

So when I said I didn't think Emma Corbin was the right actress to play Elizabeth Bennet, as I thought she was usually to intense in roles and wouldn't portray rhe lightness of Eluzabeth, I wasn't corrected, as I would have been a few years ago.

OP, there are lots of us in this situation, please keep the faith, our kids do start to question it as they mature. At least they're coming to the cause with good intentions, to stick up for the underdog.

That's a good point. Our dd's point of view is coming from a position of kindness and sympathy, believing they are supporting a marginalised group. That they don't understand that women in prisons and rape crisis centres are the most vulnerable and marginalised of all is unfortunate but maybe over time they'll see the wider picture. I think detransitioners will also have an effect on this co-hort over time.

MerlinsBeard1 · 19/04/2025 14:27

'I have modelled non-stereotypical behaviours and given her complete freedom to choose her direction in life'

There you have it then.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 19/04/2025 14:28

The thing that flipped me from being TWAW into not was realising there was an impossible disconnect between believing TWAW and also believing, as I strongly did and still do, that womens minds are not bar the effects of socialisation particularly different capability-wise to mens, and certainly not different enough to explain the vast differences in social opportunities, choices, power and outcomes.

So maybe if there's a good opportunity, rather than talking about trans issues specifcally just ask her if she thinks there is a significant difference between how men and women think? Might open a crack for her to start thinking critically, might just be an interesting conversation where you and she learn a bit more about some things you may have taken for granted the other other believes.

MyrtleLion · 19/04/2025 14:33

MarvellousMonsters · 19/04/2025 13:42

Her reasoning was that we should accept trans women into our spaces so that they are safe. She couldn’t/wouldn’t accept that the fact that some of those fully male bodied trans women pose a threat to women means that we needs a third space. He argument was those third spaces don’t exist so we need to keep them with women, and that segregation is wrong

Then ask her to show you the campaigns by the trans community for third spaces or even spaces that keep them safe rather than the hatred and violence shown to women when we want to speak.

And ask her then why she can't find them.

Rainbowpug · 19/04/2025 14:34

Op
I'm the same age as you with a 26 year old daughter
We absolutely can't even go near this subject
She has exactly the same views as your daughter,and the only way to keep peace in our family is to not discuss it .
It feels to me like
It's a generation against generation thing
But hasn't that always been the case between generations ,the young people of the 1960s wanting the sexual freedom their parents were horrified at .
I see the situation a bit like that
So I just keep my views to myself around her and other young people

mainecooncatonahottinroof · 19/04/2025 14:35

HornyHornersPinkyWinky · 19/04/2025 14:17

I’m sorry OP, it is hard to see in young women - it’s like they don’t seem to know they’re being used as the useful idiots in this game.

I also note a definite thread of ageism in their dismissal and denigration of older people (women mainly), which is sad but not surprising.
Young people never think they will get old.

Just leave things settle down, hopefully she will come out the other side.

My DDs act like I am a dinosaur in matters like this - but wasn't it always the same? Didn't we in our turn think our parents hadn't got a clue? I just avoid any discussion because it's pointless. They'll mature in the end.

Same as a work colleague I've become friends when she happened to say she thinks Trump is doing great things in the US!!! I didn't expect that but I just changed the subject, and said I feel the complete opposite so it was best if we didn't talk about him!

NineLivesKat · 19/04/2025 14:35

They will need to move MtF prisoners though, won’t they?

Mumble12 · 19/04/2025 14:38

Shimmyshimmycocobop · 19/04/2025 13:22

I also used to have "debates" about this with DS1which when threatened to turn into an argument I backed off, I didn't feel it worth falling out with my children and knew that it was social suicide for them to espouse my views.
DS1 has now come over to my way of thinking and as a gay man is exposed to a lot of this more than I am.
DS2 is at a v woke University so I don't expect him to agree with me but hopeful that sanity or common sense will prevail when he is older.
As @TheSecondMrsCampbellBlack says he knows my views .

It might not be that its social suicide to espouse your views...it might just be that they don't agree with you.

Mumble12 · 19/04/2025 14:40

Some of the responses on this thread are so arrogant. My children don't agree with me, so it must be the fault of their friends, their universities, a lack of maturity.

Pluvia · 19/04/2025 14:41

OP, not my daughter — that must really, really hurt — but I'm watching people whom I once thought were friends for life performing grief and offering their sincere apologies on FB for the hateful bigotry shown by the Supreme Court and terfs like me. I thought I'd burned off the anger over the many years I've had to take this shit, but I'm so exceptionally angry with the intelligent, educated, professional women I know who seem to have lost their minds to virtue-signalling. I feel utter contempt for them. They are women no other woman can trust. A man only has to turn up in lipstick and say he's born in the wrong body and they're all over him.

NameChangedForThisDiscussion · 19/04/2025 14:41

MarvellousMonsters · 19/04/2025 13:42

Her reasoning was that we should accept trans women into our spaces so that they are safe. She couldn’t/wouldn’t accept that the fact that some of those fully male bodied trans women pose a threat to women means that we needs a third space. He argument was those third spaces don’t exist so we need to keep them with women, and that segregation is wrong

What’s her view on women who have been raped by a transwoman and/or assaulted by them in the ladies toilets? Do our feelings and safety not matter to her?

What’s her view on the MoJ statistics that show how much more likely a transwomen in prison is likely to be in there for rape or sexual assault compared to other men?

Sadly she has been indoctrinated, activists have been targeting universities for many years, you may not get through.

MounjaroOnMyMind · 19/04/2025 14:44

I could have written that myself, OP. I don't say anything now. I did have one discussion which ended in her running upstairs and slamming every door she went past. We were watching The Rachel Divide on Netflix when she said, "This is just like the trans thing, though..." I said, "Exactly!" and she kicked off, telling me there were over 100 sexes and that women should welcome men in dresses into our spaces and so on. She effectively silenced me by running away. She had always absolutely loved JKR and in this argument said it had been a real shock when she "said what she did" (in the letter) - I kept saying, "Show me exactly the words you disagree with" but honestly, I don't think she'd read it, or had read it in a red haze.

Since then we don't talk about it but she works in a related field and is bisexual and occasionally things come up. She told me that many trans people are autistic - I did want to ask her what would happen when their special interest changed from being female to something unrelated, but just couldn't be bothered. I did say in our original discussion that I thought there were tons of lawsuits just waiting to happen - against teachers, parents and medics. "But I was a child!" would be a good defence. I also worry about the anger that older TW will feel when they don't end up with the body they want and effectively have no working genitals. They won't turn that anger on men, that's for sure.

PermanentTemporary · 19/04/2025 14:44

Like others, I'd just back right off. It's not compulsory for her to agree with you. I know exactly what you mean - I'm not going to have the discussion with ds, so you've done better than me.

Look for common ground. There will be quite a lot. Give it 20 years or so and she may, or may not, see that you have a point, even if she continues to disagree. See if you can see where she has a point too.

CurlewKate · 19/04/2025 14:44

I know that my daughter is very sad about my gender critical views. She feels exactly the way I would have felt at her age if my much loved mother had shown herself to be an unapologetic racist. We just don’t talk about it at all-the only subject we can’t discuss. It’s heartbreaking for both of us.

LonginesPrime · 19/04/2025 14:45

Mumble12 · 19/04/2025 14:40

Some of the responses on this thread are so arrogant. My children don't agree with me, so it must be the fault of their friends, their universities, a lack of maturity.

I think it’s probably less the fact the daughter has a different view and more this part that PPs are responding to:

We’ve had a long and very heated argument where she has accused me of being a bigot and a bunch of other incredibly hurtful things

JellySaurus · 19/04/2025 14:46

However, people can’t be reasoned out of positions that they didn’t reason themselves into etc.

Equally, if they did 'reason' themselves into an unreasonable position, it can be incredibly difficult for them to reverse their position. It's almost the equivalent of detransitioning.

"You know my position on this", together with modelling ethical behaviour, is probably your best way forward.

Keep that Golden Bridge open so that your dd can feel safe returning to you when she finally comes to terms with reality.

You are not alone.

ElliesPantry · 19/04/2025 14:49

Bruisername · 19/04/2025 13:55

Day before the judgement my teen dd was telling me that she sympathises with trans people but she would much rather have a transman in her space than a transwoman and then commented that ftm can pass much more easily than mtf so she would be able to tell and it would make her uncomfortable.

she also said ‘it’s the person not the trans’ and I asked whether she would say the same about ‘it’s the person not the man’. The logic is in there but this generation have had this rammed down their throat about being kind unfortunately

also the point about transwomen being safer in the ladies - why is that? Because men aren’t expected to ‘be kind’

Eh? If a ftm can pass more easily wouldn't she be rather alarmed to find what looks like a man in the toilets etc and less alarmed by the mtf because she'd immediately know and could therefore remove herself if she felt unsafe?

thevassal · 19/04/2025 14:49

MarvellousMonsters · 19/04/2025 13:42

Her reasoning was that we should accept trans women into our spaces so that they are safe. She couldn’t/wouldn’t accept that the fact that some of those fully male bodied trans women pose a threat to women means that we needs a third space. He argument was those third spaces don’t exist so we need to keep them with women, and that segregation is wrong

Honestly, I agree that probably the best way for family harmony is to take a step back from discussing it for the next few years.

However if you did want to argue this point specifically, I'd show her examples of the transwomen in this article https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/04/18/trans-rapists-can-no-longer-claim-to-be-women/
Men who raped women but identify as women (some post conviction, some before). Ask her 'by your rationale, they should be accepted into female prisons so they are safe. Would the women sharing a cell or showers with them be safe?'

If she says yes she is prioritising the safety over transwomen over women. How could a woman ever be safe in a confined space from a convicted rapist who still has a penis?

If she starts obfuscating about how they are the exception for whatever reason, then she can't believe TWAW. You can't say 'TWAW except for when they are nasty people.' Even 'well they are different because they committed their crimes as male,' won't work - self ID means TWAW from the moment they decide they are, regardless of whether they've had any surgery, taken any hormones or taken any steps to start "living as a woman."

mainecooncatonahottinroof · 19/04/2025 14:50

Mumble12 · 19/04/2025 14:40

Some of the responses on this thread are so arrogant. My children don't agree with me, so it must be the fault of their friends, their universities, a lack of maturity.

I've no idea why you think any of that is "arrogant".

We're all influenced by our peers, the world around us, and I'm old enough to be able to tell you that our views can and do shift as we mature.

What's wrong with that?!

Hwi · 19/04/2025 14:50

Intelligent educated young WOMAN? Still living with you whilst virtue-signalling? No, she is not a woman, she is a wee girl living with mummy. Educated and can't read the ruling to see it won't discriminate against dysphoria sufferers? No, she is a silly wee girl. Do you not have other topics to discuss?
Brining her up as a feminist? Why not as a humanist, i.e. equality of access, not equality of outcome. Is she paying board and lodgings? Increase her contribution, if that is the case, that will keep her mind of remote philosophical things. It will help her focus on what is really important.

On the positive side, she clearly has a big heart and is a wonderful human being - when I saw Julia Hartley Brewer gloating about the ruling, I found it disgusting. I was unpleasantly surprised to see JK Rowling gloating - did not expect it from her. I am conservative, super conservative and I feel sorry for these people. Your job is to protect your daughter's lovely heart - so it would not be broken so many times because she is lovely, even if silly. Just move away from the topic, if it upsets her. Age will cure her.

justasking111 · 19/04/2025 14:51

RNApolymerase · 19/04/2025 13:23

I don't discuss this issue with my university age offspring. They know what I think and I know what they think and there's no point arguing really. I like to think they will work it out eventually.

My youngest has some funny ideas. Rachel Reeves his MP now he's settled in this area. He's doing his masters so five years at university. We don't discuss politics. Although his partner a Yorkshire lass is very racist but in her work she deals with some awful immigrants that my son hasn't experienced.

I just keep schtum.

Bruisername · 19/04/2025 14:53

ElliesPantry · 19/04/2025 14:49

Eh? If a ftm can pass more easily wouldn't she be rather alarmed to find what looks like a man in the toilets etc and less alarmed by the mtf because she'd immediately know and could therefore remove herself if she felt unsafe?

she thinks people will abide by the ruling and the only male looking people in the room would be ftm

she's still naive!!

TempestTost · 19/04/2025 14:56

I think a lot has to do with really significant differences in the way kids are educated now. There seems to be little attempt in schools to teach critically assessing claims, or on how liberal democracy works, or the socratic method.

Everything is about hierarchies of oppression, the importance of being an ally, how terrible it is to exclude anyone, and how important it is to validate others.

Many schools have given up things like debates on really contentious topics where they expect kids to take "the other side". Because taking the other side is a sign of evil thinking and trying to defend it rationally will just mean you are vulnerable to becoming evil yourself.

OP, I feel for you, I have had friends convinced I am a bigot and withdraw and I would be devastated if my kids did the same I'd be so upset. It's bad enough they (and my sister of all people) are clearly embarrassed by my thoughts on this topic.

But I would try and leave it for now.