Please hold my hand. My daughter has drunk the koolaid, and I’m more upset & angry than I think I have ever been. (SC ruling)

[MarvellousMonsters]

This will be long, so I apologise in advance. I find myself in a grey area between radfems and woke-maidens. I don’t hate trans people, I don’t hate anyone, although as a woman in my 50s I’ve had enough male fuckwittery in my life to have a very low opinion of men in general. I do believe that there are some people with such intense dysphoria that counselling and support are not enough and surgical transition is their best solution, but I don’t believe anyone can change sex, or is born in the wrong body.

That said, I detest gender stereotypes and the confusion of sex & gender, I’m the generation of women that fought really hard on a day to day level to reject these stupid made up rules about what girls can and can’t do/wear/think, and seeing the ‘men in a dress’ become accepted as that meaning they are women is a huge step backwards, and it makes me furious.

I honestly don’t care who wears what, if a man wants to wear dresses and make up, that’s fine. I’ve spent the last 15-20 years in t-shirts and jeans, no make up etc, so I don’t see why men can’t wear skirts if they want to. As Eddie Izzard used to say, they aren’t women’s clothes, they are my clothes. (So disappointed that Eddie has now claimed to be Suzie)

I am not a dress.

I genuinely don’t care about sharing spaces like toilets, it’s possible to create safe unisex toilets, the focus on this is a distraction and needs to stop. But when men claim to identify as women and skew crime statistics, that bothers me. Men who claim to identify as women and try to insist that lesbians should date them, that’s controlling and gross. Hospital wards and bays are segregated for a reason, and demanding we use she/her pronouns doesn’t mean a man should be put in a bed in a women’s bay. Same with any communal changing area, be it the gym or a shop fitting room. Women don’t have a penis, it’s really that simple.

This morning the SC ruling was mentioned briefly and my adult daughter is furious with it. She claims it’s a step backwards, that it will cause hate crimes and violence towards trans people, that anyone who supports it is a hateful bigot and wishes harm on a vulnerable minority. I tried to calmly explain to her that no laws have been changed, only clarified, and that trans people haven’t lost any rights, nor will any MtF prisoners be immediately transferred to male prisons to be raped and murdered by the other prisoners. Women aren’t going to be randomly strip-searched by male police officers who will claim they thought it was a man, etc. She just refuses to believe that women’s safe spaces need to be just for actual biological women, because she believes trans women don’t pose a threat, and even when I explained that most trans identifying MtF don’t have surgery etc and are still fully functioning males, and showed her examples of MtF assaulting women, she won’t accept that the actions of these men mean that we should be able to hold safe spaces based on biology. I tried to explain that I understand that trans people are vulnerable to hate crimes etc, and that we need to take steps to keep them safe, but not at the expense of women. We’ve had a long and very heated argument where she has accused me of being a bigot and a bunch of other incredibly hurtful things, mostly by refusing to accept that there is a toxic sub-set of (mostly MtF) TRAs that are actually autogynephiles/INCELs with misogyny at their core, and that these people threaten actual physical harm to anyone (like JKR) who dares to question their claims of womanhood.

Help me. Help me find a way to reach her. She’s an intelligent educated young woman who has been raised with feminist values, I have modelled non-stereotypical behaviours and given her complete freedom to choose her direction in life, with no expectations or limitations based on her sex. I’m genuinely appalled to hear this garbage coming from her.

You must feel angry too.......Sometimes these sorts of disputes sever the ties or certainly destroy the previous closeness in a relationship. But that is what growing up and becoming a separate person involves. I think most young people go through a phase where they reject, strongly dislike or even hate their parents. Eventually, normally, people mellow with age and experience and they come to realise their parents are separate people with their own thoughts, feelings, desires and perspectives to them.

After some more female centred experineces your daughter may well come to realise why single sex spaces are needed.

Oh god I recognise that too, from the daughter's point of view! I wasn't a bad teenager, but I recall saying things to my parents that I would never ever have dared say to a stranger - but I think that's a feature of family dynamics, there's a rawness to interactions, even sometimes including contempt and disrespect, but because the 'recipient' is your mother, she'll still be there tomorrow and still be your mother, so we feel we can let rip without consequences.

That should not happen, it's not right, but it does. It sounds like your daughter is taking your love for granted, she can let rip and say awful things but you're still there, still her mother, still loving her. And she's right, isn't she?
So she's taking advantage of that, and she shouldn't, she should be less moody teen and more adult woman interacting with another adult woman...

Nobody "hates trans people" FFS.

Part of the reason for that is the term is so broad as to be meaningless. I have a great deal of sympathy for young girls who are taking our their self loathing on their bodies and trying to escape sexual objectification. If I didn't, I wouldn't be trying to stop their medicalisation.

I have a lot less for middle aged men who have been masturbating in their mother's/sister's/wife's underwear since they were 15 and now want to wear their fetish gear at work.

Tell her to Google Transmaxxing, and see how she responds.
Here is an interesting video about the thing that never happens:

Day before the judgement my teen dd was telling me that she sympathises with trans people but she would much rather have a transman in her space than a transwoman and then commented that ftm can pass much more easily than mtf so she would be able to tell and it would make her uncomfortable.

she also said ‘it’s the person not the trans’ and I asked whether she would say the same about ‘it’s the person not the man’. The logic is in there but this generation have had this rammed down their throat about being kind unfortunately

also the point about transwomen being safer in the ladies - why is that? Because men aren’t expected to ‘be kind’

LOL she’s right

A poster called @PriOn1 said on another thread "Say women are A, men are B, trans women are C, and so on. Each of these groups have their own different needs.
What C wants may very well be a shared space with A. But if that isn't what A wants, the shared space is only working for C and not A. And if it isn't working for A, you have lost your legal justification for excluding B.”

This sums this up perfectly for me.

But as PP have said, my relationship with DD has come out the other end...but for some years I bit my to guess and we agreed to not discuss it.

That characterises how the TRA movement debates, it’s a symptom of that imo

She is completely blinkered about the facts of transwoman, thinking they're all vulnerable bullied androgynous young men who've never fit in, and dismissing predators who claim to be trans after they've been arrested for rape.

A photo of Karen White is not sonething she wants to look at, as she doesn't want yo accept that trans status can be abused. It's a failure of critical thinking, but then she has been told by school, uni, politicians and even banks and supermarkets that Trans Women are Women, and it's bigoted to think otherwise.

I do think that she - and my DD too! - will realise it's a lot less simple than the poor transwomen and evil TERFs narrative they've swallowed.

At least you've let her know you hold different views, and as you don't sound like a Reform member, she can't just reject you as being a far right fool. It's what I hope I've done for my daughter, she doesn't think i'm too awful in general, she knows I'm a staunch feminist, so i'm hoping that sonewhere inside she's wondering if I can be completely wrong about this.

I'll be honest, I don't think there's any level of dysphoria that should be treated with hormones and surgery. It's somehow become an accepted treatment where imo it really really shouldn't be.

I actually agree with everything you’ve said and don’t feel like your views are particularly extreme in the slightest. I find it upsetting when people are hateful and incredibly black and white about this issue and you clearly aren’t like that.

My mum and I have different views on this in some regards and we ever do chat about it, we just communicate with each other without trying to change each other’s minds. We’re obviously both grown women so it’s different but I’m actually not sure I’d be discussing this with your DD much if I were you, especially not at a time like this when emotions are running high in the wake of the ruling.

I'm leaving it at that, MarvellousMonsters, I hope I've said something useful in my posts. I hope you and your DD meet each other as two adult human females over a cuppa one of these days; until then, maybe avoid the topic altogether?
You came for a handhold, and I hope you feel you've got that
Sending good wishes

You and your daughter both feel differently about an issue. It's not the end of the world or worth falling out over.

Imagine one of you found out you were seriously ill tomorrow. Would you still care which loos your daughter thinks trans people should be allowed to use?

You both just need to respect each others opinion. You don't agree on this. So what?

I agree with this. There is definitely a class element.
I disagree with you op though on unisex loos. Unisex toilets and changing rooms are not safe, and it isn’t possible to make them safe as far as I can tell. More women are assaulted in unisex facilities. Cubicles off a corridor, thought of as safe, can be really dangerous as a man can go into a cubicle and pull in a girl or woman. Unisex changing rooms unless they open directly onto a communal and staffed space, pose the same problem. Loos need door gaps for safely, but that makes it easy for a man to slide a ‘phone underneath.

Perhaps she will wake up when she gives birth?

I agree with PPs advising you just leave her be for the moment.

if you have to discuss it with her, I would ask her if she’s actually read the judgment, and ask what specifically she disagreed with.

The Scottish government were arguing that trans people with GRCs are women but trans people without GRCs are men - is she ok with treating self-IDing trans people (who perhaps can’t afford the GRC process) to be treated as second-class citizens compared to people with a piece of paper? How would that be fair?

The vast majority of trans women would still have been deemed men under the Equality Act even if the Scottish government had won, as they had already conceded that point before the SC case.

So many people upset about the ruling seem to think the opposite ruling would have been that TWAW, but that wasn’t even on the table as an option.

I think the anger and disrespect comes from knowing deep down your argument is flawed.
DS1 called me a bigot when discussing this issue. I asked him ‘What is the purpose of single sex spaces, why do they exist?’ Having already given him the MOJ stats it seemed that question got to the nub of the issue and he couldn’t argue it …so I got called a bigot. I was very upset and when we both had calmed down I told him we would have to agree to disagree but that I did not accept his accusations of bigotry, my aim is to protect women and children.
It is very upsetting OP ..I understand how you feel.

Well, I think that's the problem. She has spoken to you with contempt..where is this coming from?

I can disagree with my kids on this matter but they do not treat me with contempt.

I’m sorry OP, it is hard to see in young women - it’s like they don’t seem to know they’re being used as the useful idiots in this game.

I also note a definite thread of ageism in their dismissal and denigration of older people (women mainly), which is sad but not surprising.
Young people never think they will get old.

Just leave things settle down, hopefully she will come out the other side.

My dd and I don't agree on this. Following a heated debate when I misgendered Caster Semenya we don't really discuss it any more. I remember having heated debates with my Dad about nuclear power (he pro, me anti) I'm sorry that he died before I could say I now agree with him. However, we didn't not love and respect each other even if we disagreed about things. I think the dangers of trans ideology are very clear but my DD has non binary and trans identifying friends. I do understand why young women put their critical thinking on hold in relation to this topic. Hopefully they will think more critically over time. Don't lose your dd over this op and don't take the disagreement personally even if she said unkind things in the heat of the moment.

I don't think the problem is that they're disagreeing over an issue, it's the way OPs daughter is refusing to engage in any meaningful way.

It is dissapointing when as a feminist mother your daughter strongly supports a view that is at odds with what you believe in. When they refuse to engage with evidence and see you as the enemy, it's very dissapointing.

But of course we still love our daughters, we just hope they'll be more open to evidence and not retreat to emotion.

Not talking about it helps - my daughter doesn't talk to me about this anymore, but isn't as dogmatic anymore if I refer to an obviously female non-binaru person as 'her' rather than 'they'.

So when I said I didn't think Emma Corbin was the right actress to play Elizabeth Bennet, as I thought she was usually to intense in roles and wouldn't portray rhe lightness of Eluzabeth, I wasn't corrected, as I would have been a few years ago.

OP, there are lots of us in this situation, please keep the faith, our kids do start to question it as they mature. At least they're coming to the cause with good intentions, to stick up for the underdog.

Honestly? My advice is that you don't return to this issue. Neither of you have any power over it and it has the capacity to destroy your relationship, so bury it.

To the extent that you want to be 'armed' here are a few pieces of food for thought:

1. The term transwoman has been used as a generic catch all for too wide a group of people. That includes the vulnerable people with gender dysphoria who your daughter is concerned about, but it also includes criminals who have been able to hide in plain sight under this term in order to access women's spaces and commit crimes. The clarity given by the Supreme Court this week will make it easier to protect all vulnerable people - children, women and those with gender dysphoria.
2. The English Common Law system is based on the interpretation of a reasonable person. The judgment itself follows this pattern and is extremely reasonable. It is possible she has read secondhand articles about it that have twisted the words of the judgment to elicit an emotive response in the reader that isn't warranted.
3. Based on current data c.20% of men,c. 5% of women and c.75% of transwomen in prison are there for convictions related to violent sexual crimes.

Don't bother. Let her carry on with her opinions.