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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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30
Ingenieur · 16/04/2025 19:53

I haven't read the entire thread, but happily there is clarity on the term "lesbian", too

"Accordingly, a person with same sex orientation as a lesbian must be a female who is sexually oriented towards (or attracted to) females, and lesbians as a group are females who share the characteristic of being sexually oriented to females. This is coherent and understandable on a biological understanding of sex. On the other hand, if a GRC under section 9(1) of the GRA 2004 were to alter the meaning of sex under the EA 2010, it would mean that a trans woman (a biological male) with a GRC (so legally female) who remains sexually oriented to other females would become a same sex attracted female, in other words, a lesbian. The concept of sexual orientation towards members of a particular sex in section 12 is rendered meaningless. It would also affect the composition of the groups who share the same sexual orientation (because a trans woman with a GRC and a sexual orientation towards women would fall to be treated as a lesbian) in a similar way as described above in relation to women and girls"

No more fragrant, skirt-go-spinny "lesbians" with tilted heads and Adam's Apples...

lifeonmars100 · 16/04/2025 19:55

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 16/04/2025 19:35

Mantrum for Guardian reading, bearded, lentil weaving fox murdering woke bros.

Trantrum for the India Willoughbys and Munroe Bergorfs.

How do you weave lentils? I always use them in cooking so am curious as to how they can used to create fabric. I also read the Guardian (amongst other news outlets) and I do not have a beard, have never murdered a fox, in fact have only seen one a few times in my life. As for trans people, I have never ever to my knowledge encountered one in a public toilet or a changing room. I have however been a victim of sexual assault on two occasions and both perpetrators were obvuously male as were the two male members of my immediate family who sexually abused me when I was a child. I was also sexually assualted by a male doctor as a young teenager. I understand how women can feel threatened by trans people, but you are using cliches to back up your argument whereas I tend or try to look at my life experence.

mids2019 · 16/04/2025 19:56

Channel 4 news major strop.....seems like an insinuation that the supreme court was politically motivated. Weird.

OP posts:
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 16/04/2025 19:59

lifeonmars100 · 16/04/2025 19:55

How do you weave lentils? I always use them in cooking so am curious as to how they can used to create fabric. I also read the Guardian (amongst other news outlets) and I do not have a beard, have never murdered a fox, in fact have only seen one a few times in my life. As for trans people, I have never ever to my knowledge encountered one in a public toilet or a changing room. I have however been a victim of sexual assault on two occasions and both perpetrators were obvuously male as were the two male members of my immediate family who sexually abused me when I was a child. I was also sexually assualted by a male doctor as a young teenager. I understand how women can feel threatened by trans people, but you are using cliches to back up your argument whereas I tend or try to look at my life experence.

Yes, I'm using clichés to poke fun at the tedious, insufferable left wing men who believe that female rape survivors who don't want men in their rape support groups - regardless of any gender identity those men may claim to have - are bigots.

What of it?

AshesofTime · 16/04/2025 20:00

lifeonmars100 · 16/04/2025 19:55

How do you weave lentils? I always use them in cooking so am curious as to how they can used to create fabric. I also read the Guardian (amongst other news outlets) and I do not have a beard, have never murdered a fox, in fact have only seen one a few times in my life. As for trans people, I have never ever to my knowledge encountered one in a public toilet or a changing room. I have however been a victim of sexual assault on two occasions and both perpetrators were obvuously male as were the two male members of my immediate family who sexually abused me when I was a child. I was also sexually assualted by a male doctor as a young teenager. I understand how women can feel threatened by trans people, but you are using cliches to back up your argument whereas I tend or try to look at my life experence.

We’re not treated by trans people. We’re threatened by males. Specifically males who breach female boundaries.

ArabellaScott · 16/04/2025 20:00

lifeonmars100 · 16/04/2025 19:55

How do you weave lentils? I always use them in cooking so am curious as to how they can used to create fabric. I also read the Guardian (amongst other news outlets) and I do not have a beard, have never murdered a fox, in fact have only seen one a few times in my life. As for trans people, I have never ever to my knowledge encountered one in a public toilet or a changing room. I have however been a victim of sexual assault on two occasions and both perpetrators were obvuously male as were the two male members of my immediate family who sexually abused me when I was a child. I was also sexually assualted by a male doctor as a young teenager. I understand how women can feel threatened by trans people, but you are using cliches to back up your argument whereas I tend or try to look at my life experence.

And I've met a transwoman masturbating at the sink in the ladies'.

We all have life experience. Some of us have more relevant life experience than others.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 16/04/2025 20:01

AshesofTime · 16/04/2025 20:00

We’re not treated by trans people. We’re threatened by males. Specifically males who breach female boundaries.

And the prison population statistics would actually suggest that we have more reason to fear men who claim to identify as women than men who don't.

WinterOnItsWayOut · 16/04/2025 20:02

So pleased with this ruling 🥳.

Can I ask what happens with Trans people who have a passport in their new name and have Female identification? I know this ruling relates to Women but what about the use of Female in these circumstances?

Theeyeballsinthesky · 16/04/2025 20:03

lifeonmars100 · 16/04/2025 19:55

How do you weave lentils? I always use them in cooking so am curious as to how they can used to create fabric. I also read the Guardian (amongst other news outlets) and I do not have a beard, have never murdered a fox, in fact have only seen one a few times in my life. As for trans people, I have never ever to my knowledge encountered one in a public toilet or a changing room. I have however been a victim of sexual assault on two occasions and both perpetrators were obvuously male as were the two male members of my immediate family who sexually abused me when I was a child. I was also sexually assualted by a male doctor as a young teenager. I understand how women can feel threatened by trans people, but you are using cliches to back up your argument whereas I tend or try to look at my life experence.

We’re not threatened by trans ppl, we’re threatened by men however they present

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 16/04/2025 20:03

lifeonmars100 · 16/04/2025 19:55

How do you weave lentils? I always use them in cooking so am curious as to how they can used to create fabric. I also read the Guardian (amongst other news outlets) and I do not have a beard, have never murdered a fox, in fact have only seen one a few times in my life. As for trans people, I have never ever to my knowledge encountered one in a public toilet or a changing room. I have however been a victim of sexual assault on two occasions and both perpetrators were obvuously male as were the two male members of my immediate family who sexually abused me when I was a child. I was also sexually assualted by a male doctor as a young teenager. I understand how women can feel threatened by trans people, but you are using cliches to back up your argument whereas I tend or try to look at my life experence.

It’s not trans people. It’s males. And not just shitty males. I don’t think nice, lovely males should be in female spaces and sports either. All males. Regardless of inner feelings/identity.

How is that so hard to understand?

AshesofTime · 16/04/2025 20:04

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 16/04/2025 20:01

And the prison population statistics would actually suggest that we have more reason to fear men who claim to identify as women than men who don't.

Yes I know. They’re amongst the men I’m talking about.

EasternStandard · 16/04/2025 20:05

mids2019 · 16/04/2025 19:56

Channel 4 news major strop.....seems like an insinuation that the supreme court was politically motivated. Weird.

I haven’t watched C4 news for years. How is it so bad?

AshesofTime · 16/04/2025 20:05

@MissScarletInTheBallroom Sorry, I was a bit snippy there. I half misread what you said!

PriOn1 · 16/04/2025 20:10

JacksonBrodieJacksonLamb · 16/04/2025 18:57

Apologies for a mammoth post. I have been around FWR (under a different name) pre Jenni Murray/Spartacus, and I feel v emotional posting here today.

I totally understand why a parent might go down the line David Tennant took. I didn’t, and my (young autistic adult) child cut off all contact with me.

I couldn’t honestly say that I saw my child as a girl, which is what my child wanted, because I think girl = young female human and I didn’t know how to ‘see’ girlhood in any other way, unless I redefined girlhood as a set of stereotypes. I’ve spent a lifetime asserting that the full range of gender expression should be available to everyone, while also believing that sex matters while we live under patriarchy.

I told my child my acceptance of them was unwavering, and that I wanted to understand what it meant for them to be a trans girl and how I could support them in exploring their identity, but that wasn’t what my child wanted/needed to hear. I needed to literally say ‘I see you as a girl, and there is no material difference between you and my other daughter’, and I couldn’t, because the words ‘girl’ and ‘woman’ still have work to do. Because we need language to describe the class oppressed on the basis of their sex, not their gender.

I tried to make myself believe what my child wanted me to believe, but I couldn’t. I was (and remain) curious about their experience, and why being seen as a girl/young woman was so critical to their sense of self, and how I could support them to explore ways of getting comfortable in the body they live in. I could go quite a long way, but I could not lie.

My ex couldn’t understand why I couldn’t just say what our child wanted to hear, whether I believed it or not.

I used to think (naively) that estrangement only happened to shit parents. I wasn’t shit. I was shit sometimes, and I was amazing occasionally, but I was good enough, most of the time. Estrangement is just constantly shit.

I worry so much about how my child will be treated, and how unsafe they will feel (because of the most vulnerable/most unsafe narrative that’s peddled rather than because they’re actually any less safe than they were yesterday). My LinkedIn feed is full of people in uproar on behalf of their trans family members, and I understand why. I want my child to be treated with kindness and dignity. Obviously.

BUT

I am a lesbian. I am a feminist. I have fought my whole life to dismantle sex-based oppression and gender-based stereotyping. I have worked with vulnerable women who needed single-sex spaces. I was written off as a crazy conspiracist by so many people (not on MN) when I started raising the alarm about the implications of redefining ‘woman’ as an identity rather than a sex class.

Because of my family situation, I’ve had nothing left in me for a public fight, but I’m so relieved by the judgement, while also feeling sick because my child will feel attacked and beleaguered.

I feel like a casualty, not a winner, but I’m hugely grateful to everyone who has fought so hard for this outcome. Thank you 🙏🏻

I’m sure others have already responded to you as this thread is growing so fast, but as another mother who is currently estranged from two of my children over this, I wanted to say how sorry I am for all the parents this is hurting.

I'm relatively blessed (even though it still feels hellish) as neither of the children who’ve cut me off are transitioning, so at least I have that, but like you, it had never crossed my mind they would become estranged from me as we’d always got on well.

I could have written your comments about simply not being able to say what they wanted to hear. I couldn’t do it and I know anyway that it would never have been enough and they wouldn’t have believed me anyway. It’s a unique kind of pain and I never thought I’d be here.

I hope your son comes back to you and comes to understand that you did your best to meet him part way, even though that was never going to be enough either. Hugs.

heathspeedwell · 16/04/2025 20:12

Just for all the people who understandably haven't had time to keep up with the entire thread, there's government evidence that men who identify as woman don't act like us as a class: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/24/government-figures-70-per-cent-of-transgender-prisoners-are/

70% of men currently incarcerated who identify as women have convictions for sex crimes or other violent crime. Only 3% of women who are currently incarcerated have convictions for sex crimes.

We need to ask the hard question: why do men who identify as women, as a class, not behave like women.

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 16/04/2025 20:15

lifeonmars100 · 16/04/2025 19:55

How do you weave lentils? I always use them in cooking so am curious as to how they can used to create fabric. I also read the Guardian (amongst other news outlets) and I do not have a beard, have never murdered a fox, in fact have only seen one a few times in my life. As for trans people, I have never ever to my knowledge encountered one in a public toilet or a changing room. I have however been a victim of sexual assault on two occasions and both perpetrators were obvuously male as were the two male members of my immediate family who sexually abused me when I was a child. I was also sexually assualted by a male doctor as a young teenager. I understand how women can feel threatened by trans people, but you are using cliches to back up your argument whereas I tend or try to look at my life experence.

As for trans people, I have never ever to my knowledge encountered one in a public toilet or a changing room. I have however been a victim of sexual assault on two occasions and both perpetrators were obvuously male as were the two male members of my immediate family who sexually abused me when I was a child.

I spent my working day when pregnant vomiting in the ladies toilet while a transwoman spent many breaks tossing off in and all over the cubicle next to me while I was heaving so hard I wet myself and needed changing multiple times a day. Saloon style cubicles.

When I brought it up to management I was told that's not possible because TWAW and I'm welcome to take myself up or down a floor to vomit instead.

I then stopped going into work and decided to just throw up in my own bathroom instead but then lost out on a significant amount of pay for simply not wanting to put myself in a position where I'd have been labelled a bigot. I didn't have the voice to challenge it further. I didn't have the energy or the fire in me either. I feel like I was such a coward but I do feel like more women who felt like me will now feel more empowered.

Arran2024 · 16/04/2025 20:20

socialdilemmawhattodo · 16/04/2025 19:32

Just another fucking bloke deciding what a woman is. Go non-contact, if you can.

My nephew has stopped talking to my family and another set of cousins because we are gender critical. He still took our birthday and Xmas money (we were late to pick up the hint). His choice. I'm not bothering with him.

lifeonmars100 · 16/04/2025 20:20

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 16/04/2025 20:03

It’s not trans people. It’s males. And not just shitty males. I don’t think nice, lovely males should be in female spaces and sports either. All males. Regardless of inner feelings/identity.

How is that so hard to understand?

i have never encountered males, be they nice, lovely or shitty in female spaces. In my day to day life especially as a young woman i have encoutered predatory, unpleasant, creepy, misogynistic males, none of them were trans, or tying to pass as female they were just bloody men. Like all women I have been followed, cat called, groped, had obscene things said to me and on two separate occasions seriously sexually assaulted. Neither of my assailants were wearing heels, a frock or lipsitck, They were just vile blokes of which there are do many. Is that hard to understand? I am sorry if you or anyone you care about has been attacked or threatened by some nasty person who has claimed that they are a woman and has used that claim to be a sexual predator

ArabellaScott · 16/04/2025 20:21

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 16/04/2025 20:15

As for trans people, I have never ever to my knowledge encountered one in a public toilet or a changing room. I have however been a victim of sexual assault on two occasions and both perpetrators were obvuously male as were the two male members of my immediate family who sexually abused me when I was a child.

I spent my working day when pregnant vomiting in the ladies toilet while a transwoman spent many breaks tossing off in and all over the cubicle next to me while I was heaving so hard I wet myself and needed changing multiple times a day. Saloon style cubicles.

When I brought it up to management I was told that's not possible because TWAW and I'm welcome to take myself up or down a floor to vomit instead.

I then stopped going into work and decided to just throw up in my own bathroom instead but then lost out on a significant amount of pay for simply not wanting to put myself in a position where I'd have been labelled a bigot. I didn't have the voice to challenge it further. I didn't have the energy or the fire in me either. I feel like I was such a coward but I do feel like more women who felt like me will now feel more empowered.

Fucking hell. All these things we were told couldn't possibly happen. Happened. Over and over. And then we were told we were bigots, fascists, for pointing out that they happened.

Flowers
AshesofTime · 16/04/2025 20:23

lifeonmars100 · 16/04/2025 20:20

i have never encountered males, be they nice, lovely or shitty in female spaces. In my day to day life especially as a young woman i have encoutered predatory, unpleasant, creepy, misogynistic males, none of them were trans, or tying to pass as female they were just bloody men. Like all women I have been followed, cat called, groped, had obscene things said to me and on two separate occasions seriously sexually assaulted. Neither of my assailants were wearing heels, a frock or lipsitck, They were just vile blokes of which there are do many. Is that hard to understand? I am sorry if you or anyone you care about has been attacked or threatened by some nasty person who has claimed that they are a woman and has used that claim to be a sexual predator

Yes but it’s not really relevant to the conversation is it?

Transwomen are men just like the men who harassed and attacked you. Literally no difference.

And, of course, there are plenty of transwomen who have been convicted of sexually assaulting women, so I’m not sure what your point is?

SpicyMoth · 16/04/2025 20:23

Reddit r/mtf are losing their minds today.
Its genuinely really sad to see how much they truly believe this ruling harms them or their rights, they've been so utterly captured and brainwashed its heartbreaking...
0 sarcasm here, but I honestly wish I could give some of them a hug (the ones that are sad, not the angry, hateful or spiteful ones) It must be awful to live in a reality that has such extreme reactions to common sense rationale to the point it warps you to your very core :/

JacksonBrodieJacksonLamb · 16/04/2025 20:24

I’m so sorry, PriOn1. Here’s to you and all the other families caught up in this.

ArabellaScott · 16/04/2025 20:24

lifeonmars100 · 16/04/2025 20:20

i have never encountered males, be they nice, lovely or shitty in female spaces. In my day to day life especially as a young woman i have encoutered predatory, unpleasant, creepy, misogynistic males, none of them were trans, or tying to pass as female they were just bloody men. Like all women I have been followed, cat called, groped, had obscene things said to me and on two separate occasions seriously sexually assaulted. Neither of my assailants were wearing heels, a frock or lipsitck, They were just vile blokes of which there are do many. Is that hard to understand? I am sorry if you or anyone you care about has been attacked or threatened by some nasty person who has claimed that they are a woman and has used that claim to be a sexual predator

Look, any man who claims to be a woman is a transwoman.

Just because the man is 'nasty' doesn't mean he is somehow not allowed to call himself a transwoman.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 16/04/2025 20:25

AshesofTime · 16/04/2025 20:05

@MissScarletInTheBallroom Sorry, I was a bit snippy there. I half misread what you said!

No offence taken!

AshesofTime · 16/04/2025 20:25

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 16/04/2025 20:25

No offence taken!

Phew! I think I’ve spent too much time online arguing with TRAs today. I’ve started taking offence when none was given!

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