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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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Brainworm · 16/04/2025 19:02

NoWordForFluffy · 16/04/2025 18:46

Fucking hell, I'm fucking doomed. Not only do I have short hair, I'm also 5'11". I've never (knowingly!) been misgendered in a public loo. In fact, I don't recall ever being misgendered to my face (I am regularly by email at work as my shortened name is used, which confuses people, despite my longer version also being in my signature!).

Never to use a public loo again. 😩😭😩😭

People need to go and get some grips to get hold of.

I am curious as to whether the introduction of driving licences, compulsory seat belt wearing or alcohol consumption limits on drivers were met with hysteria about these laws being impossible to police.

I am wondering about the actual or perceived fragility of women who, in the interest of creating safer spaces for other women, will be broken if anyone asked them to confirm they are female. I am 5’11 and gender non conforming. I have relatively big hands and feet. I don’t think anyone has mistaken me for a male due to me being female. It’s not impossible that they might. If questioned, I’m confident that my voice would reassure.

Chariothorses · 16/04/2025 19:07

@Brainworm one of my best friends is 6ft 3, wears trousers, short hair. never been mistaken for a bloke (though I have been surprised how rude total strangers are- comments like 'my you're a big girl aren't you!). She is so patient!

Chariothorses · 16/04/2025 19:08

@JacksonBrodieJacksonLamb wanted to add the flowers emoji but my old computer doesn't have it xx

JacksonBrodieJacksonLamb · 16/04/2025 19:08

Chariothorses · 16/04/2025 19:08

@JacksonBrodieJacksonLamb wanted to add the flowers emoji but my old computer doesn't have it xx

Thank you 🙏🏻

NoWordForFluffy · 16/04/2025 19:09

murasaki · 16/04/2025 18:54

I was misgendered (mis sexed?) in Pret while buying a sandwich,as a) I have a low voice, b)I had a cough and c) the guy at the till hadn't looked up when he first spoke to me. He was mortified when he did. I wasn't upset but laughed and said 'no worries' to his apology. As I really wasn't bothered.

Yeah, I'm not arsed either. I don't point it out, but I've had a couple of apologies when they've clicked. I always reply to say I'm not bothered!

justasking111 · 16/04/2025 19:10

When in Wales they forced it onto our children, grandchildren in schools they unleashed the dragon mother in many.

heathspeedwell · 16/04/2025 19:10

I'm a tall, broad-shouldered woman and if I happen to have had short hair or have worn a hat then I have been mistaken for a man in the past. It's absolutely no big deal at all. As soon as I start talking it's obvious that I'm a woman, and of course I'm extremely grateful for any woman who is looking out for our collective safety.

I would rather be questioned about my gender a million times than have to risk sharing the toilet with a man who identifies as a woman. I think a lot of people don't realise that over 70% of men who identify as woman who are currently in prison in the UK have convictions for sexual assault or other extremely violent crime. A few seconds of embarrassment is infinitely preferable to the risk of sharing intimate spaces with male people.

NoWordForFluffy · 16/04/2025 19:12

@Brainworm, we sound very similar. How we manage to go out and about without issues is beyond me! 🙄🤷‍♀️🤣

heathspeedwell · 16/04/2025 19:13

Here's a link to a Telegraph article to show that over 70% of men who identify as women who are currently incarcerated are sex offenders or convicted of violent crimes, just in case anyone thought I might be exaggerating: www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/24/government-figures-70-per-cent-of-transgender-prisoners-are/

ArabellaScott · 16/04/2025 19:13

JacksonBrodieJacksonLamb · 16/04/2025 18:57

Apologies for a mammoth post. I have been around FWR (under a different name) pre Jenni Murray/Spartacus, and I feel v emotional posting here today.

I totally understand why a parent might go down the line David Tennant took. I didn’t, and my (young autistic adult) child cut off all contact with me.

I couldn’t honestly say that I saw my child as a girl, which is what my child wanted, because I think girl = young female human and I didn’t know how to ‘see’ girlhood in any other way, unless I redefined girlhood as a set of stereotypes. I’ve spent a lifetime asserting that the full range of gender expression should be available to everyone, while also believing that sex matters while we live under patriarchy.

I told my child my acceptance of them was unwavering, and that I wanted to understand what it meant for them to be a trans girl and how I could support them in exploring their identity, but that wasn’t what my child wanted/needed to hear. I needed to literally say ‘I see you as a girl, and there is no material difference between you and my other daughter’, and I couldn’t, because the words ‘girl’ and ‘woman’ still have work to do. Because we need language to describe the class oppressed on the basis of their sex, not their gender.

I tried to make myself believe what my child wanted me to believe, but I couldn’t. I was (and remain) curious about their experience, and why being seen as a girl/young woman was so critical to their sense of self, and how I could support them to explore ways of getting comfortable in the body they live in. I could go quite a long way, but I could not lie.

My ex couldn’t understand why I couldn’t just say what our child wanted to hear, whether I believed it or not.

I used to think (naively) that estrangement only happened to shit parents. I wasn’t shit. I was shit sometimes, and I was amazing occasionally, but I was good enough, most of the time. Estrangement is just constantly shit.

I worry so much about how my child will be treated, and how unsafe they will feel (because of the most vulnerable/most unsafe narrative that’s peddled rather than because they’re actually any less safe than they were yesterday). My LinkedIn feed is full of people in uproar on behalf of their trans family members, and I understand why. I want my child to be treated with kindness and dignity. Obviously.

BUT

I am a lesbian. I am a feminist. I have fought my whole life to dismantle sex-based oppression and gender-based stereotyping. I have worked with vulnerable women who needed single-sex spaces. I was written off as a crazy conspiracist by so many people (not on MN) when I started raising the alarm about the implications of redefining ‘woman’ as an identity rather than a sex class.

Because of my family situation, I’ve had nothing left in me for a public fight, but I’m so relieved by the judgement, while also feeling sick because my child will feel attacked and beleaguered.

I feel like a casualty, not a winner, but I’m hugely grateful to everyone who has fought so hard for this outcome. Thank you 🙏🏻

You've had such a journey. Flowers

I hope that this will actually be a new beginning for trans-identifying people, too. There is room and space to make sure gender non-conforming people are better understood, supported, and provided for when they need it.

Material reality is deeply needed, we don't have any solid ground without it. And the simple material facts are what we have needed to be reasserted. In the long run, I do think this will help trans-identifying people.

ArabellaScott · 16/04/2025 19:14

-and wishing for the best for you and your child going forward, Jackson.

JacksonBrodieJacksonLamb · 16/04/2025 19:15

ArabellaScott · 16/04/2025 19:13

You've had such a journey. Flowers

I hope that this will actually be a new beginning for trans-identifying people, too. There is room and space to make sure gender non-conforming people are better understood, supported, and provided for when they need it.

Material reality is deeply needed, we don't have any solid ground without it. And the simple material facts are what we have needed to be reasserted. In the long run, I do think this will help trans-identifying people.

I think so too.

Mumteedum · 16/04/2025 19:15

Wonder what will happen in practice to all those public policies like in universities that say people can use the bathroom they feel most comfortable with and not being questioned.

carly2803 · 16/04/2025 19:17

does this mean now I wont see men who identify as a woman, in a female only changing room?

men who identify as a woman/gender neutral/cat etc sharing a private space with a woman etc?

brilliant

glad trans rights are protected obviously. But more so a sain ruling has happened. female is female by birth only

heathspeedwell · 16/04/2025 19:17

And here's a quote from the Telegraph article for people who don't like to click on links: "More than 70 per cent of transgender prisoners in British jails are serving sentences for sex offences and violent crimes, government figures have revealed.
At least 181 of the 244 transgender inmates, more than 74 per cent, are in jail for crimes including rape, forcing under-age children into having sex, grievous bodily harm and robbery."

To put this in perspective, only 3% of women who are currently incarcerated in the UK have convictions for sex crimes.

There's a very stark difference between the behaviour of women, as a class and transwomen, as a class.

The same is true in other countries. The New York Times recently revealed that 15% of the women in Federal Prison in the US are men who identify as women.

Ingenieur · 16/04/2025 19:17

FairCat · 16/04/2025 16:20

As always, the devil is in the detail. Forcing trans people into facilities that 'out' them or expose them to harassment and violence is morally and legally unacceptable. Any organisation that drafts policy that way is exposed to serious consequences. The most obvious option is to provide secure, private spaces (cubicles) that anyone can access.
Typically these things are driven by insurance companies, organisations do what their insurers demand to get the best premiums. Time will tell how that works out.

Forcing trans people into facilities that out them is... morally and legally unacceptable

Nonsense. It's a problem of their own making, and the consequence of their own unfounded beliefs. No different to a flat earther being "outed".

What an odd take...

MarzipanAndFrenchFancies · 16/04/2025 19:18

JustAMiddleAgedDirtBagBaby · 16/04/2025 18:43

Just listening to this evening's News Agents and the sad music they've chosen to go under some of the quotes at the beginning is finishing me off.

I hate listened to The News Agents today, I knew I would despise it. Lewis was so self righteous.

They blamed the politicians, they blamed the right wing media. They should blame themselves.

If the "left wing" media gave women a respectful space to discuss their views without being shut down or witch hunted, we probably wouldn't be here now.

BaronMunchausen · 16/04/2025 19:18

On C4 news Maya Forstater has just explained that men are responsible for 98% of sex crime etc and we have separate prisons, changing rooms etc for that reason - to protect women. Cathy Newman then closed the discussion by telling her that many people would disagree with her!

Chariothorses · 16/04/2025 19:18

@Mumteedum hurriedly withdrawn for amendment hopefully as otherwise letting men use female loos is a legal case they cannot win.
But I hope this judgement helps organisations to stop listening to Stonewall etc

Chariothorses · 16/04/2025 19:20

@BaronMunchausen To see intelligent journalists so under the thumb of trans activism they won't accept truth and reality is so sad!

Mumteedum · 16/04/2025 19:21

Chariothorses · 16/04/2025 19:18

@Mumteedum hurriedly withdrawn for amendment hopefully as otherwise letting men use female loos is a legal case they cannot win.
But I hope this judgement helps organisations to stop listening to Stonewall etc

In practice, I cannot see this being tested though. I think you'd still have to be a very brave woman working or studying in a university to object to a transwoman using a single sex toilet.

I suspect they'll be less visible with their policy. If they update it, they won't highlight the changes I'm sure.

DrPrunesqualer · 16/04/2025 19:22

Mumteedum · 16/04/2025 19:15

Wonder what will happen in practice to all those public policies like in universities that say people can use the bathroom they feel most comfortable with and not being questioned.

Those policies are now against the law.

Wonder if they had any new signs ready. Can’t wait to drop my kids back at Uni after Easter for a nose around, especially at Exeter since they’ve already taken down their website page on this issue which previously used

the classic ‘ whichever you feel most comfortable in ‘ policy.

Of note Channel 4 news
cutting Maya off and stating most people in the country don’t agree with her ‘opinion’ was disgusting!

mids2019 · 16/04/2025 19:22

Common sense rules.

OP posts:
PencilPleat · 16/04/2025 19:23

Steam coming out of my ears watching C4 news. And sounds like there’ll be two more TW discussing the ruling in addition to the one they’ve just interviewed, so three in total - and one woman. Why not interview women for whom this is fabulous news?

JuneFromBethesda · 16/04/2025 19:23

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