Pronouns - I’ve peaked 🥺

[MotherEarthisaTerf]

I was a bloody typical “be nice” feminist.

I went from respecting all pronouns, to not respecting pronouns of people who didn’t respect women (eg Imane Khelif etc etc) and occasionally using they/ them.

Today I was reading a thread on Reddit re Dr Upton and it was such a world away from reading Mumsnet’s posts - where we happily call a spade a spade. Call a man a man.

Reading Reddit, the she / her pronouns just made the whole situation sound much worse for Dr Upton. It automatically appeared Dr Upton was going through more of an ordeal - and that’s not from the content of the posts, which were to be expected, the tone made me feel more sympathetic due to the pronouns used.

It feels much harsher but it’s MUCH clearer what the issues are when pronouns match the facts, not the niceties.

However it’s something I hugely struggle with. Anyone else out there who battle with this ick?

I think it's a phase a lot of us have gone through - welcome to the foothills! I think Dr Upton is going to peak a lot of people on pronoun use.

Also, Reddit is militantly pro trans. So there's that...

Reading Reddit, the she / her pronouns just made the whole situation sound much worse for Dr Upton. It automatically appeared Dr Upton was going through more of an ordeal - and that’s not from the content of the posts, which were to be expected, the tone made me feel more sympathetic due to the pronouns used.

It feels much harsher but it’s MUCH clearer what the issues are when pronouns match the facts, not the niceties.

Yes, give it time and you'll probably find it liberating not to gaslight yourself, I know I did.

It’s an attack on truth.

This may help OP.

Pronouns are Rohypnol.

https://fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

I found once I read that article and stopped using false pronouns I couldn’t go back. Makes posting here in a way that doesn’t get me deleted/banned challenging.

It is. However, in saying that I am of the opinion that I would rather play it safe and have my posts remain u deleted so will use they if I have to use any pronoun. It is frustrating to me but I don’t want my posts deleted.

This!
I was actually a full on TWAW person.
Then I was watching a video actually by a pro-trans organisation (wish I could find it now) and I experimented there and then with the swapping as the characters in the film were talking (as I was irritated by the incongruity of the very male TW). I couldn’t go back. It was like the scales fell from my eyes. It was honestly an epiphany.

This is a cult. Once you see it. You can’t unsee it.

I thought it was interesting that the BBC reports have been very careful to avoid pronoun use altogether, having previously been very she/her

I was pro trans too, I hadn’t given it much thought and even argued that it might be good for women to get rid of the rigid boundaries of male and female. 😂
I honestly can’t remember what lifted the veil but I can’t unsee the misogyny now.

Using factual language changes the entire debate.

Using pronouns we know to be inaccurate means we are participating in the 'inmersive role play' Naomi Cunningham describes.

In some situations that perhaps doesn't matter. In some contexts little white lies are social grease that aid relations. We don't all have to point out all the truths all the time.

In a situation where the discussion is about whether a man should be allowed to access womens spaces, its utterly essential to be clear and factual about sex.

OP, I feel you. I remember proudly declaring to a friend that I was on the side of vulnerable, oppressed people and I did not want to be a TERF! (Cos clearly Terfs were evil, racist, homophobic, right-wing harpies!)

Then I noticed the KJK billboard thing and was a bit puzzled - then Lia Thomas! I couldn't understand how everyone was watching a 6ft4 man beating women swimmers and no one was protesting!

Ah, I thought- it's because they haven't got our Equality Act, which clearly spells out that sex-specific exemptions, such as DV shelters, are legal...............

I was curious as to why women were protesting and JKR was getting a hard time. What made me turn against the crowd was that I instinctively knew women wouldn't be protesting for nothing, at the very least, I had to hear what they had to say.

I must admit to having burnt out last year having to discuss why accurate language was so important around the boxers Khelif and Lin.

There is a significant difference in messaging when you read :

’She should be excluded from the female boxing event because of her puberty derived advantages’

compared to

’The male boxer should be excluded from the female boxing event because of their puberty derived advantages’

Just like conversations about Caster Semenya.

“Her naturally high testosterone”

No. Semenya’s testosterone was within the healthy range for a male. No female athlete would have a testosterone level at the level Semenya tested at. That would be a sign that the athlete may have a tumour or was gravely ill with something else.

It is very clear when the sentences for Upton are used:

’She should be excluded from the female changing room because she is trans’

vs

‘Dr Upton should be excluded from the female changing room because they are a male person’.

I came here to post Pronouns are Rohypnol - which is such a brilliant analysis.

Once you start referring to men unambiguously as - men - the whole thing falls apart.

Which is why the TRA side have fought so hard on the language front.

Yes, I just took a look. I think in this particular case, where the judge has (if I understand correctly) ruled that Upton's lawyer can use 'she' and Peggie and her team can use 'he', the BBCs obligation to be unbiased means they really have to avoid either sexed pronoun other than in reported speech.

I still resent pretzeling my and other people’s language. It makes for very long posts. But on the other hand, I value the awesome articulate posters on FWR very much.

I think it was marvellous to read the quote about Upton pulling up Upton’s ‘big girl pants’. It worked on more than one level, didn’t it? And they didn’t have to use pronouns really to achieve it.

The whole case is beyond lunacy. Frame this as 'my manager has decided who I must undress in front of and this includes men', then it's seen as the horrendous case it is.

I tied myself in knots for a while with "language evolves, and maybe preferred pronouns and 'cis' are in the direction of travel" because I was assuming that the motivation behind the change in pronoun use was benign and my discomfort was something I needed to get over. The blinkers came off in stages a few years ago. If I use wrong sex pronouns it can be assumed that I'm being compelled and have decided that avoiding the potential consequences of not doing so is more important than digging my heels in on principle in that situation.

I've switched on pronouns and now can't and won't comply

NC was brilliant on pointing out dominating element of compelled speech

For me it all goes back to legislation

It enables all this and needs to go

I've never used the pronouns and it surprises me when GC people do. It's a linguistic trick, and as others have said it can completely change the tone of a sentence.

The women don't want to share their changing room with her. How mean and exclusionary.

The women don't want to share their changing room with him. Of course they don't, he's male and shouldn't be in there.

The entire movement is based around playing language games, fudging words so that they mean different things and inventing new terms for well established practices.

Sex changes for children would never have gotten off the ground if they hadn't rebranded into "gender affirming care". One thing I like to do is maintain use of the word transvestite - everyone knows what it means and it acts as a bit of a jolt to others, a kind of "oh yes, that's who we're talking about"

I could feel myself being almost persuaded to use pronouns without coercion when first on MN. But then I saw Ivy/McKinnon use pronouns as Ivy’s convincing argument that enabled sports policy to be changed.

When you watch Ivy/McKinnon state that because everyone uses Ivy/McKinnon’s pronouns and says ‘woman’, that it is cruel to deny male people entry into one of the last areas they are excluded, female sport, you understand the level of emotional manipulation being done using people’s usage of pronouns.

Upton did Upton’s own version of this. Upton used the no one apart from Sandie Peggie has said that Upton is not female, so therefore Upton considers everyone’s silence to be either, or both, acceptance of the philosophical belief being prioritised above everyone else’s or that Upton has no readily identifiable male body cues.

Therefore, with that Upton feels vindicated that Upton can present as a female doctor when same sex care requested.

All because people are coerced in various ways to use pronouns and language. It is so blatantly obvious once you see it. And I think Upton’s behaviour has really opened many eyes to how this works.

No wonder there are a growing number of people stating that Upton is not a person who has a transgender identity. Upton is being rejected by some transgender people because it is certainly not showing these unreasonable demands in the light they want them to be shown. Ie. They wanted their demands to continued to be viewed as being needed to respect them and to show kindness to someone who is so vulnerable that they would go to such extremes as to make the hard choices to change gender.

I have called Dr Upton - and others - he on here and not got deleted.😕