NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #12

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although at the start of the second week getting everything done in this time period was looking less certain. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11

I would interpret 'wellbeing', as BU going off halfcocked about a non-incident, ranting about being disrespected, transphobic hate, bigoted viewpoints, genocide, etc.

Help.. I was on audio + video link earlier (on mute and camera off) as that was the only way I could join for some reason and then after they threw everyone off I haven’t been able to get back in.. just WFTCHTJ for an hour and then just kicked off and now back to WFTCHTJ.. If Video + audio is the only way it will work for me, has anyone managed to get back in by this route? Or am I wasting my time now?

I've been WFTCHTJ since about 10 mins before the broke for lunch. Have left myself on this even though I know they won't be joining people over lunch, just in the hopes I'm near the top of the queue for admittance once they return. If they start back by 1.30 and I'm in I'll take a late lunch then to listen to 30 minutes before my afternoon meetings. If not I'll be on catch up via here/twix.

So grateful for the commentary, sorry to keep repeating myself but I fear the pace these threads are moving people might not see the thanks.

There were 551 in the waiting room at one point.

2nd half of the morn from TT tweets

They were kicked out with the rest of us so not a full accounting.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1889266502898966987.html

Video + Audio is fine. Just make sure that when (if) you join, you immediately disable your camera. You need to have an icon on screen to do this and if it isn't obviously there, then to get the icon to pop up requires you to move your mouse about or swipe your screen.

I'm still WFTCHTJ and have been for some time. How are they deciding who is let in?

I asked a question but just got sent new signing in details, no response at all!

Does the observer option no longer work?

For some people it's never worked but I think that's about the browser and/or machine you're using.

So Upton was supposed to provide ALL emails relating to the matter. However Upton decided to only provided selected emails....

...remember NC has already laid the ground work to demonstrate that Upton is not a credible witness due to coercive and controlling behaviour and instead is trying to manipulate the situation to their own advantage.

I'm following various accounts on Twitter covering this and there's a woman TRA called Sally Hines commenting who is apparently an academic in gender studies/sociology.

I cannot fathom how someone who should have critical thinking skills can be so obtuse. She appears to have no understanding whatsoever regarding why women would even want single sex spaces. My mind is boggled.

Ok, thanks for info @nauticant

If it's found that DU was not honest in his complaints/statements against SP, where does NHS Fife stand? Would they still be responsible because they haven't investigated properly or do they get some leeway because they weren't to know DU wasn't fully honest?

I think NC did a good job of getting him to say that the incidents that he reported (not speaking to him directly/asking him to do a set of jobs) were THE MOST SERIOUS incidents. He said there were other incidents of rudeness "but none of us would get any work down if we noted down each time a colleague was rude to us" (!!!!)
He can't now say there were other incidents that were worse but not noted at the time.

So was it proportionate of the trust to immediately suspend Sandie Peggie for these incidents, apparently on "risk to patient safety" grounds.

That's what the trust will have to answer.

I haven't been able to get back in since we were all disconnected about 20 minutes ago.

I'm assuming they're now having their lunch break?

I'm really interested to see what they claim relates to 'well-being'.

They were using it as yet another attempt to control, you can't see something so personal, his well-being is at stake, victim, victim, victim.

Can't wait to see why it must be concealed

Thanks for this - will hang on then in the hope of being re-admitted!

Finally homes and it's lunch time! No idea what's going on yet as I'm only up to him putting on his big girl pants on the last thread.

I cant! I just cant!!!!

Creepy creepy creepy man.

But I did peak my female ambulance crew today. They were horrified!

JR's a KC and not stupid. Surely, surely, she wouldn't be deliberately trying to keep out material that she knows is within scope of the judge's January order? I could believe that she might have failed to ask Upton enough probing questions about what he has, which would be careless, but to fail to disclose things she knows are relevant could be career-ending for her, couldn't it?

This Sally Hines?

She's an absolute melt.

The content of the emails isn't necessarily the only relevant thing here.

See my previous comment re: demonstration of control of the narrative.

The question is whether their actions were reasonable. If serious allegations regarding patient safety are made, it would be reasonable to suspend the member of staff involved whilst an investigation took place. It would not be reasonable to actually discipline them in any way without investigating the allegations and determining what actually happened. Again, in determining what happened, the employer is in the clear provided their determination is one that a reasonable person could arrive at given the evidence, even if most people would come to a different conclusion. Note that this is not intended as a comment on Fife's actions in this case.

I agree. The content could be mild by anyone else's standards.

It's the action of withholding that demonstrates his need to be in charge.

Still interested in the content, though!

The top of the peak for me today has been Upton's slimy admittance that he believes he has the right to perform an intimate examination on a seriously unwell female patient who has already requested same sex care unless that patient refuses him personally.

Everyone needs to understand just how big a problem this is.