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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #12

1000 replies

nauticant · 11/02/2025 11:57

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although at the start of the second week getting everything done in this time period was looking less certain. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
yourhairiswinterfire · 11/02/2025 12:35

themostspecialelfintheworkshop · 11/02/2025 12:22

Am I right in thinking DU didn't specify a date or patient for safety allegations nor anything very serious. And yet they suspended her? This is unbelievable! How could they investigate on such a vague basis?

I was thinking there had to be more to it surely, especially as she was suspended and then told her she'd be supervised...but no, it's looking like they really did suspend SP just on the word of this vindictive man with no evidence at all.

rebmacesrevda · 11/02/2025 12:36

JasmineAllen · 11/02/2025 12:33

Me too. DU is a zealot but presumably NHS Fife will be more interested in protecting themselves rather than protecting him.

There's no way their evidence is going to corroborate his. There will be contradictions all over the place. I expect they will lie and obfuscate too in an attempt at damage limitation. I just wonder who (if anyone) the judge will believe.

GrumpyUngulate · 11/02/2025 12:36

ThatsNotMyTeen · 11/02/2025 12:33

Surely any normal person would disclose the emails and leave it to lawyers to consider if they were legally privileged?

DU is not a normal person. He has discovered he can bend the very fabric of reality just by declaring he's a woman now, and he assumes this superpower extends further. So if he decides the emails aren't relevant, they aren't.

Chariothorses · 11/02/2025 12:36

Yes @anyolddinosaur views that seek to deliberately remove the human rights of others are not WORIADS. Freedom of speech and belief and expression, freedom from degrading treatment (such as forcing women to get undressed with men or intimate touch).

CheekySnake · 11/02/2025 12:37

Given that Upton has spent most of the morning picking at even the simplest question with 'what exactly do you mean by that' and then ignoring any explanation given and answering the question he's decided he should have been asked, not the one that was actually asked, it's entirely possible that he has been equally slippery with instructions given by JR and has interpreted those using his own superior intelligence.

ThatsNotMyTeen · 11/02/2025 12:38

GrumpyUngulate · 11/02/2025 12:36

DU is not a normal person. He has discovered he can bend the very fabric of reality just by declaring he's a woman now, and he assumes this superpower extends further. So if he decides the emails aren't relevant, they aren't.

Exactly

He knows better than the legal professionals involved in his case

Datun · 11/02/2025 12:38

If he hasn't disclosed certain emails, for a reason, then what's to stop him not disclosing them now?

Naomi will have to go through them with a fine tooth comb to see if there is anything in there relating to something that's not disclosed.

That's twice they failed to disclose something they've been ordered to do.

Plus the investigation that never was, now is.

JasmineAllen · 11/02/2025 12:38

yourhairiswinterfire · 11/02/2025 12:35

I was thinking there had to be more to it surely, especially as she was suspended and then told her she'd be supervised...but no, it's looking like they really did suspend SP just on the word of this vindictive man with no evidence at all.

It's unbelievable isn't it? Especially as it appears DUs recollection of this incident is so sketchy. And that's without the whole investigation that wasn't an investigation that now has been acknowledged by DU actually was an investigation.

anyolddinosaur · 11/02/2025 12:38

The investigation was about whether she was unable to work with Dr U, in his view due to being a transphobic bigot. NHS FIFE failed them both - far too little evidence of serious harm to suspend her and his clinical supervisor (Kate Searle) should have told him not to be such a PITA. Where were those "big girl pants" when he needed them?

Chariothorses · 11/02/2025 12:39

Just to say I have read elsewhere this tribunal may well over run the tribunal time slot and be reconvened/ finished some weeks/ months in the future...

Datun · 11/02/2025 12:39

yourhairiswinterfire · 11/02/2025 12:35

I was thinking there had to be more to it surely, especially as she was suspended and then told her she'd be supervised...but no, it's looking like they really did suspend SP just on the word of this vindictive man with no evidence at all.

She didn't respond to me waving in her face, and she didn't say hi on a day that I can't remember.

NebulousDog · 11/02/2025 12:39

I'm beginning to feel a teeny tiny bit sorry for JR that she didn't cover this ground with her clients and tell them to disclose.

It makes sense now that she skipped away from who did what/where/when and focussed on feelings.

nauticant · 11/02/2025 12:39

Chariothorses · 11/02/2025 12:39

Just to say I have read elsewhere this tribunal may well over run the tribunal time slot and be reconvened/ finished some weeks/ months in the future...

Yes, that's happened before. It was a gap of a couple of months IIRC.

OP posts:
musicalfrog · 11/02/2025 12:40

nauticant · 11/02/2025 12:34

Nothing's normal about today but loads of us like you have been waiting ages. I'm soon going to be coming up on the hour so will log out and retry rather than get automatically logged out when I'm not expecting it.

I've just had to re- log in.

Interested to know those who are being let in, how long they've had to wait?

Angelwings77 · 11/02/2025 12:40

I managed to get in a few minutes before they broke for lunch but had no sound, I'm still in and hoping when they come back at 1.20 they'll have fixed the sound problem

CheekySnake · 11/02/2025 12:40

Angelwings77 · 11/02/2025 12:40

I managed to get in a few minutes before they broke for lunch but had no sound, I'm still in and hoping when they come back at 1.20 they'll have fixed the sound problem

I've got no sound either :/

ThatsNotMyTeen · 11/02/2025 12:40

I wonder if there is still issues over non disclosure of emails could it lead to the case being thrown out.

However how long could it take to get to that point

what a shambles. This whole case is an abomination

ThatDaringMintCritic · 11/02/2025 12:41

Surely BU's solicitors would have spotted missing documents. Also, if they know about wellbeing issue, someone must have discussed this with BU in some detail. Does anyone know if the J can stop the hearings to ensure/await full disclosure?

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 11/02/2025 12:41

ThatsNotMyTeen · 11/02/2025 12:33

Surely any normal person would disclose the emails and leave it to lawyers to consider if they were legally privileged?

It does make me wonder what's in those emails & I suspect NC has a good idea what's in them too - hence she's been chasing these emails a while.

I do get the sense JR knows of them & has seen them & appears to suggest they're excluded from the court on the basis the content is about wellbeing. But they're the emails in response to the complaint advice being sought so they include relevant information that's within the court order.

JR still trying to keep them out of the disclosure order makes me think NC feels the content will be highly relevant & valuable to SP's case.

eulittleb831 · 11/02/2025 12:41

I have emailed the ET for clarity on the issues and whether normal service will be resumed after lunch, will advise on any response fingers crossed

Scout2016 · 11/02/2025 12:41

There's so little he can actually describe having been done wrong by him - even by his own low threshold of "she didn't wave back" - but he has generated so much by way of emails etc he's tangled himself up in his own web of self obsession.

Gobbolinothewitchscat · 11/02/2025 12:42

Just popping on to leave a summary of this morning from Boswelltoday on X. I couldn’t see that it had already been posted.

Day 7 Peggie v NHS Fife - Upton’s cross-examination continues to unravel, exposing the glaring contradictions in his testimony.

@tribunaltweets reports that the session may be continuing without the live feed. Here's what happened before the feed was cut.

Naomi Cunningham’s precise questioning, he has been forced to acknowledge uncomfortable truths—none more damning than his admission that women must take the initiative to opt out of being seen by a male doctor rather than having their request for female-only care automatically respected.

The exchanges over female patients requesting a woman doctor were particularly striking. Upton insisted he had no obligation to disclose his sex to patients, despite admitting that it is not always obvious he is male. This led to a critical moment: when asked whether a rape survivor requesting a female doctor should have to explain why, he evaded the point, refusing to acknowledge that placing the burden on the patient to justify her request is cruel and inappropriate. Instead, he tried to equate the issue with other forms of discrimination, suggesting that accommodating a woman’s need for a female doctor was akin to handling a racist patient’s request. This false equivalence speaks volumes about his unwillingness to acknowledge why single-sex care matters.

When Cunningham pressed him on a scenario involving a woman in A&E with unexplained heavy bleeding who explicitly requested a female doctor, Upton’s answer was evasive. He initially suggested it would depend on medical urgency but, when pushed, admitted that if the woman objected to his presence, he would step aside. This seemingly reasonable answer was undermined by the reality that it would fall on the patient to realise he was male in the first place—possibly when she was already in distress and vulnerable. Cunningham pointed out the cruelty of this expectation, highlighting that a woman might only realise he is male once she is already being examined. Rather than acknowledging the obvious problem, Upton deflected, repeating that it was the patient’s responsibility to express discomfort.

The contradictions in his behaviour regarding the changing room incident were also laid bare. On Christmas Eve, he insisted on his right to be in the female changing room despite knowing Peggie was uncomfortable. He framed her discomfort as bigotry rather than a legitimate expectation of privacy. Yet hours later, he claimed to feel unsafe, reporting distress over how Peggie had spoken to him. This inconsistency was key—he was willing to assert his right to be in a space where a woman was uncomfortable, but when faced with an uncomfortable interaction himself, he sought immediate action. Cunningham pressed him on this, pointing out that while he had demanded swift action from NHS Fife, he continued using the female changing room despite knowing Peggie had objected. His justification? That he would not let "bigoted opinions" dictate his behaviour. In other words, he dismissed her right to privacy and forced her into a situation she clearly wished to avoid.

His perception of hostility from Peggie was further scrutinised when it became clear that no one else recalled the incidents in the way he described. He had been documenting perceived slights—such as Peggie responding to another colleague rather than him—but these grievances amounted to little more than workplace friction. When confronted with the fact that neither Peggie nor other staff recalled the incidents he described, he fell back on the idea that it was his perception of hostility that mattered, rather than any objective reality. This was a devastating admission. A case that hinges on serious allegations against Peggie was revealed to rest not on clear-cut evidence, but on Upton’s personal feelings.

Perhaps the most striking moment came when Cunningham suggested that Upton’s determination to control language—insisting on the use of "she/her" pronouns and rejecting biological definitions—was about power. She put it to him that his position required total affirmation from colleagues, and that the issue with Peggie was that she refused to participate in what she described as an "immersive role play." Upton denied this but conceded that it "hurts" when people do not use his preferred language. This, combined with his legal team’s attempts to compel the tribunal to use his chosen terminology, underscores the imbalance at the heart of this case—women must be made to accommodate, but no such obligation is placed on him.

As the session progressed, the underlying theme of power and control became clearer. Upton’s insistence that his identity must be respected, while refusing to extend that same respect to women who request female-only care, was laid bare. His own shifting narrative—asserting himself in the changing room on Christmas Eve, only to claim fear and distress later—suggests an attempt to construct a grievance rather than a genuine concern for safety. His notes, detailing minor slights and perceived rudeness from Peggie, paint a picture not of someone facing discrimination, but of someone determined to build a case against a colleague who simply did not comply with his expectations.

At this stage, Upton’s credibility is in tatters. His testimony has exposed the fundamental flaws in self-ID policies—where women must justify their discomfort, while trans-identifying males are affirmed without question. The tribunal is laying bare the harsh reality of these policies in practice: women cannot opt out without consequence, and when they try, they are accused of bigotry, hostility, or worse. NHS Fife’s position in defending Upton is becoming increasingly indefensible. The tribunal is making it clear that this case is not just about one hospital—it is about whether women’s rights to privacy and dignity still mean anything at all.

whospayingjanerussell · 11/02/2025 12:42

HalfWomanHalfHobnob · 11/02/2025 12:23

Is that Michael Foran on camera chatting to NC?

Yes

Iamnotalemming · 11/02/2025 12:42

I was just booted out of the WFTCHTJ page and have logged back in. Patiently waiting to see if I will be able to witness any more this afternoon.

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