NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #12

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although at the start of the second week getting everything done in this time period was looking less certain. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11

JR wasting more time. How can we know what's relevant if the respondents haven't disclosed the emails? Answer you can't.

Oh Judge is making my point - hurrah!

I don't know if it's a sound issue but JR sounds despondent.

It would help if the Clerk stayed in the room, to deal with issues quickly.

DU has released 40 pages of emails between him and the British medical association which he should have released previously,

I’m going to have to wait for summaries now. I can’t really follow the fast moving threads- yesterday I was listening in so able to work at the same time. Today has been much harder.

Thank you to the persistent women reporting back to us, and I hope many articles are written a a a result.

And I hope the massive levels of interest give a hint that this really matters, it’s not just a technicality, it’s a live happening issue and we’re horrified.

Everything that has happened today appears to be because of the system being unable to cope with the sheer number of remote observers.

They are trying to fix the system so access is available to all but the main concern is that the system doesn't fully crash.

judge pointing out that you have to read stuff to know if it's relevant

As I've said, the more observers reporting the better, gives the best chance of the most accurate representation, in the absence of a transcript/livestream/broadcast.

Is that why NC has asked for an adjournment?

Judge says:

No prospect of finishing the evidence this week and we will have to come back at a later date.

But wants to finish DU tomorrow first...

No smoking gun? NC has the right to view, consider and make submissions on evidence that exists and determine the relevance!

There are many facets to this case (including access to the court) and you cannot really police what is discussed. It's a live thread and actually the more posts there are, the more people might clock on to it which can only be a good thing (imo).

Agree wholeheartedly. I can remember early ETs where there was so little interest/ awareness that we only filled three or four threads for the whole proceedings. From what I can see the Forstater EAT, which set the legal precedent of WORIADS and was incredibly important, ran to 4 threads — and they were only 30 pages long. This is thread 12 already.

If you just want to talk about the legal aspects of the case then it's probably best to come back in the evening, when no one's likely to be complaining about lack of access, and discuss then. We should be chuffed that more than 500 people have been trying to observe the hearing remotely, and that they are all concerned about the sudden loss of access. This is indicative of the fact that we've finally broken through the indifference.

I think it is relevant because the Haldane (?) judgement was before August 2023.

The judgement was that legally TW without a GRC remain male/men. TW with a GRC are legally male/men.

If DU doesn’t have a GRC legally they are male and so should not have entered a single sex space for females.

This case is in Scotland as was the judgement so it’s not a case of English vs Scottish case law.

That's a lot of concern for his wellbeing, BMA. beardy reckon

J cannot tell if relevant or not without seeing but all agree cannot conclude this week. NC confident finish with DU tomorrow.

JR arguing that it's only day 7 of a 2 week hearing and there is no smoking gun for NC to find however much more time she has.

Well, she would say that wouldn't she

40 pages?!!

40 pages?! Wow. I wish we could see them.

Sounds like a punk band name!

It's inevitable. They do a brilliant job, but there are often a few omissions and misspellings that make it confusing. I find I have to use TT and threads like this to get a full picture.

Doesn't USA just film courts and post on youtube - seems so much simpler

'No! Don't on any account open the bottom left drawer of that desk! There is no smoking gun to be found there!'

Interestingly JR said bits of the emails relating to upton's GRC status have been redacted b/c reasons.

I’m in, must have been lucky timing when I clicked join, although sound is terrible.

“roving public enquiry” again from JR, discussion of timings now, JR considers 20 minutes is long enough to read 30 pages and doesn’t see why NC needs more. Judge asking NC if she can conclude her examination of DrU by 2.30pm tomorrow. NC considers ambitious but achievable.

Agree, and we can all produce our notes if requested!