NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #10

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9

So nobody? He can't be taking advice at all?

That is fascinating. So if he's making himself look terrible, they can't tell him?

He'll be getting feedback from TRAs. Which might not be clear-eyed.

@Datun they can advise about proceedings and answer questions and take instruction, they cdvise even to settle, what they cannot do is influence or lead the witness.

@myplace I didn't know about the feminism boards because I'm just a mumsnet tourist really. I'm not even a mum! After stumbling over this thread I feel like this is why I'm here. I don't know when feminism became taboo. As far as I'm concerned, equality between the sexes is a myth, and if as a society we want equality then feminism is how we get it.

When I woke up this morning I realised why this case his struck a chord with me. My last relationship was with a manipulative, controlling, narcissistic man. His entire self-image was based on a web of lies and he existed in deep denial of reality. We split up nearly a year ago, and over time I have recovered from the mind-fuckery he inflicted on me. As a consequence of all of that, I now have a very strong aversion to the denial of reality and a deep need for truth.

I'm not trying to diagnose a personality disorder, but Upton is clearly narcissistic, and has infected the minds of everyone around him so that they collude with his denial of reality. Seeing it play out has induced a visceral reaction in me, because I've been in their position before. I made a vow to myself to never get into that position again. I, for one, will not collude in the denial of reality.

WFTCHTJ

I used to work in the NHS and many of my family still do (Drs, nurses). In my experience the NHS is terrible at dealing with difficult staff members and will either wait for them to rotate onto the next job (drs) or manage move/promote them out of a department (nurses/support staff).

Also, another thing I remember is that nurses generally are terrible at backing each other up and the union isn't great either, where as Drs and the BMA have each others backs. Of course it's possible things have changed since I worked there but from what I hear, not likely.

I don't know if anyone has mentioned on here, but I'm saddened by the lack of public support SP has had from her colleagues. In fact I think it stinks of cowardice.

As a doctor he is a TRA superstar in the making. No rowing back. Perhaps doubling down?

Sorry you were in that position and you're not alone. Women who've been in coercively controlling relationships should NOT have to go along with this doctor's delusion about his sex. It's abusive.

I wonder about the 'oh' from JR (I missed it) - was it an 'oh' like a realisation 'oh' or an 'oh' as in a 'how can you say that' outrage tone?

It was a very performative "oh".

Gosh, that sounds like a bit of a minefield.

What if he says how do you think I'm doing, and asks about a specific part? Are they allowed to answer?

Nope. None. They can advise on procedural issues and settlement but they can't lead their witness or advise them on what or what not to say.

is that JR on the right of the picture? If so, then my god, she even LOOKS like a dolores umbridge type!

Does anyone know what time the planned start is this morning? I missed the end of yesterday, but TT looked like they were saying 9.30?

It was an 'oh!' of realisation. The sound of a huge penny dropping from a great height.

Really? As the two times I've appeared at inquest, everyone from the trust had coaching from the barrister.

Okay, that's very clear, thank you.

That's kind of warming the cockles of my fuming heart.

Operation let them speak continues uninterrupted

@themostspecialelfintheworkshop Thanks. I don't consider myself a victim so I hope I don't sound like one. I'm a survivor! My ex was the "victim"; he was both grandiose and vulnerable in his narcissism. Consequently I also vowed not to think or act like a victim, because I don't want to be like him!

Just as a reminder for everyone, this used to be included in the DSM as a mental illness. It was removed a few years ago for nebulous reasons that had nothing to do with science or medicine. (not saying for a second that the DSM is scientific, because it's not, but still).

Wasn't there a massive push over years to get things into the DSM or have their definitions changed, so that they'd be conditions that the pharma industry could sell drugs for?

Yes.

One thing I've been wondering is how a witness feels who gives evidence over several days covering a weekend and must have no access to online discussion of the case, or any in person discussion of it. Can you imagine? I think I would have needed to take myself physically away from any device - which may be why he came back looking different, as going to a spa hotel or something without even a phone would have been a very sensible choice. Wrong time of year to go camping up a mountain!

Yes there was. Not all that long ago. WPATH were involved.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5066580-we-need-to-talk-about-the-dsm

That's an argument that could be made. Definitely an expansion of what constitutes depression/anxiety, opening up a market for anti-anxiety meds that hadn't performed very well in testing.