Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #10

1000 replies

nauticant · 10/02/2025 15:51

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9

OP posts:
Thread gallery
27
MustBeThursday · 11/02/2025 09:08

Igneococcus · 11/02/2025 08:59

How does junior doctor rotation work? Do doctors stay at the same hospital at the end or do they move on?
I'm wondering if the hospital thought it was easier to comply with DU's demands while he's there rather than challenging him in the hope he'd be gone soon and now this cowardice is coming to bite them on the arse.

If Scotland is the same as England: They rotate around a region and in different departments. The first 2 years in training are 4month blocks. But DU doesn't appear to be in a training post so could have a fixed term contract as a staff grade

NotAGentleReminder · 11/02/2025 09:08

Personally, I'd like to see gender identity belief viewed through a Prevent lens when it comes to children and young people being drawn towards it and how it might impact them.

@BonfireLady hear hear, or at least for the pro-GI/TRA online content to be viewed as similar to pro-ana or self-harm content. It's a massive safeguarding issue.

OhBuggerandArse · 11/02/2025 09:09

It would be interesting to see accounts from people who've come out the other side of previous generational cults (Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh? Doomsday cults?) that tell us something about how they shifted perspective and were able to see them for what they were. That insight will be what we need, but on a bigger scale than ever before, given how entrenched this 'philosophy' has become within institutions that hold power in peoples' lives.

Priddy · 11/02/2025 09:10

Igneococcus · 11/02/2025 08:59

How does junior doctor rotation work? Do doctors stay at the same hospital at the end or do they move on?
I'm wondering if the hospital thought it was easier to comply with DU's demands while he's there rather than challenging him in the hope he'd be gone soon and now this cowardice is coming to bite them on the arse.

I've thought about this, too. One of our friends works in HR in the NHS (!) and said in a conversation after yesterday's events that Upton's the kind of individual even experienced HR people dread managing because, as we saw yesterday, they thrive on discomfort, fear and loathing. She said that probably Fife were just waiting for him to move on to be someone else's problem.

Appalonia · 11/02/2025 09:11

Waitwhat23 · 11/02/2025 08:54

It seems to be a disagreement as to whether NC should have used the term cis i.e. 'what would you call cis' in an effort to make DU answer the questions rather than him just repeating that he didn't understand perfectly normal language -

https://x.com/MForstater/status/1889220063716339970

Edited

I thought this was an interesting thought as to why the judge didn't force him to use the word ' woman'...

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #10
IDareSay · 11/02/2025 09:13

"Millions of pounds have been spent by government departments; health and education boards and lobbyists along with some carefully chosen media glove-puppets to ensure that men self-identifying as women is a done deal before the public wakes up to what’s really happening.
As all of this was proceeding with flags and parades and bunting, almost imperceptibly the concept of what it meant to be a woman was being dismantled: starting with words but eventually proceeding to material reality."

Kevin McKenna in The Herald

https://archive.is/0tbiE

Chariothorses · 11/02/2025 09:14

Dear lovely fellow mumsnetters,
Please could I ask you not to speculate about the close family members around this abusive, controlling, gaslighting man? They haven't spoken publicly, and we don't know what is going on behind closed doors. The national press coverage about this man's cruelty and contempt for women will be creating massive stresses and tension for his wife, and she didn't ask for any of it.

And thanks for all the input- I can't bear to watch the tribunal live, so depend on your helpful posts here and tribunal tweets...

SinnerBoy · 11/02/2025 09:14

Upton has lied on the stand. He said that he was instructed to use the women's facilities, but before that, he said that he decided to do so and told his manager that he had been and would continue to do so.

Has NC picked up on this? It's been hectic getting through 4 full threads and I may have missed it.

Brainworm · 11/02/2025 09:14

I'm not sure how controlling he is properly comes across unless you see him and his smug grins each time he slyly demands something.I can fully understand those who are only reading the details missing this

I think the fully fledged TRAs are a lost cause. I think that those who don't view DU's behaviour as controlling may see it as clear assertion of boundaries. The fair minded, non misogynistic sub group within this category, will also likely think SP was asserting boundaries also.

TBH, I think the general public, in the main, aren't very interested, but when drawn in, think transwomen should not be allowed to use female SSS.

Swashbuckled · 11/02/2025 09:14

Gutted I have to work today.

Have set up personal laptop so I can have it on in the background at feasible points. If they do start at 9:30 I’d appreciate it 🤣.

Can tune in more easily later (maybe from around 2:00) whilst doing reports etc.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/02/2025 09:15

Dear lovely fellow mumsnetters,
Please could I ask you not to speculate about the close family members around this abusive, controlling, gaslighting man? They haven't spoken publicly, and we don't know what is going on behind closed doors. The national press coverage about this man's cruelty and contempt for women will be creating massive stresses and tension for his wife, and she didn't ask for any of it.

I agree with this.

nauticant · 11/02/2025 09:15

Chariothorses · 11/02/2025 09:14

Dear lovely fellow mumsnetters,
Please could I ask you not to speculate about the close family members around this abusive, controlling, gaslighting man? They haven't spoken publicly, and we don't know what is going on behind closed doors. The national press coverage about this man's cruelty and contempt for women will be creating massive stresses and tension for his wife, and she didn't ask for any of it.

And thanks for all the input- I can't bear to watch the tribunal live, so depend on your helpful posts here and tribunal tweets...

This. And this is not about #bekind. It's about possible risk of causing hassle to Sandie's case or risking public access to the livestream.

OP posts:
Datun · 11/02/2025 09:15

It wouldn't surprise me if JR advised upton to row back on the I'm a biological female nonsense. Say it was a joke, tongue in cheek, he knows his sex is male, etc.

If the headlines overnight are anything to go by, she must know it's making him look like an absolute twat.

If she does want him to do that, she'll have a bit of a job though, he's clearly on a mission

Kucinghitam · 11/02/2025 09:17

Datun · 11/02/2025 09:15

It wouldn't surprise me if JR advised upton to row back on the I'm a biological female nonsense. Say it was a joke, tongue in cheek, he knows his sex is male, etc.

If the headlines overnight are anything to go by, she must know it's making him look like an absolute twat.

If she does want him to do that, she'll have a bit of a job though, he's clearly on a mission

Edited

I don't think the Poster Princess for TRSOH will be very pleased with any advice from JR, because the Poster Princess knows that the Poster Princess is always Righteous about everything.

eulittleb831 · 11/02/2025 09:17

Datun · 11/02/2025 09:15

It wouldn't surprise me if JR advised upton to row back on the I'm a biological female nonsense. Say it was a joke, tongue in cheek, he knows his sex is male, etc.

If the headlines overnight are anything to go by, she must know it's making him look like an absolute twat.

If she does want him to do that, she'll have a bit of a job though, he's clearly on a mission

Edited

As the type of man he is it is unlikely he would listen to a female

AnneKipankitoo · 11/02/2025 09:17

Datun · 11/02/2025 09:15

It wouldn't surprise me if JR advised upton to row back on the I'm a biological female nonsense. Say it was a joke, tongue in cheek, he knows his sex is male, etc.

If the headlines overnight are anything to go by, she must know it's making him look like an absolute twat.

If she does want him to do that, she'll have a bit of a job though, he's clearly on a mission

Edited

Do you think DU will listen to advice?

frenchnoodle · 11/02/2025 09:17

Datun · 11/02/2025 09:15

It wouldn't surprise me if JR advised upton to row back on the I'm a biological female nonsense. Say it was a joke, tongue in cheek, he knows his sex is male, etc.

If the headlines overnight are anything to go by, she must know it's making him look like an absolute twat.

If she does want him to do that, she'll have a bit of a job though, he's clearly on a mission

Edited

Do you think he'd listen to her, because I don't?

AnneKipankitoo · 11/02/2025 09:18

This thread moves quickly

spannasaurus · 11/02/2025 09:19

Datun · 11/02/2025 09:15

It wouldn't surprise me if JR advised upton to row back on the I'm a biological female nonsense. Say it was a joke, tongue in cheek, he knows his sex is male, etc.

If the headlines overnight are anything to go by, she must know it's making him look like an absolute twat.

If she does want him to do that, she'll have a bit of a job though, he's clearly on a mission

Edited

I'm not sure that JR is allowed to discuss anything with Upton while he's still giving evidence

CriticalCondition · 11/02/2025 09:19

Datun · 11/02/2025 09:15

It wouldn't surprise me if JR advised upton to row back on the I'm a biological female nonsense. Say it was a joke, tongue in cheek, he knows his sex is male, etc.

If the headlines overnight are anything to go by, she must know it's making him look like an absolute twat.

If she does want him to do that, she'll have a bit of a job though, he's clearly on a mission

Edited

He's in the middle of giving evidence. His legal team are not allowed to coach him.

Bannedontherun · 11/02/2025 09:20

barristers are not allowed to coach witnesses in the UK

Datun · 11/02/2025 09:20

Haha! Not a single person thinks he'll row back.

I think you're right. I still think she'll want him to though

I really hope Naomi can harness this I'm a biological female. Ask the NHS if they agree. They can't possibly say yes, and what will happen if they say no? Could she ask if they think he's deluded?

WFTCHTJ · 11/02/2025 09:20

Waitwhat23 · 10/02/2025 21:10

Your post made me think of this excellent one from the 'Break It Down for Me' thread by the mighty Datun -

'Yes, peak trans is meant to invoke the image of a hill.

So people might start in the foothills wondering what on earth women are talking about, why is it so important?
Then they begin to question. Still not sure, because up until now, they didn't see any problem. Why not be nice? What's the big deal?

Then they start to understand the concepts. Sometimes they still waver, because this all feels like it's happening somewhere else. Online, or not really affecting them. And anyway, feminists have a downer on men, so it's unsurprising they're cross. And, honestly, I know a transwoman and she's absolutely delightful.

Then they read about a rapist being transferred to a female prison. So what, one news story. Are you saying all transwomen are rapists?!

Then they read about the woman who asked for a female HCP and got a man. Oh well, a little uncomfortable, but still, what's the big deal? Then they read that the woman was called a transphobic bigot for objecting.

Hmmm, well that's a bit off. I may not mind a man doing my smear test, but I can understand women who do. It's not really bigoted.

At this point you have advanced a few hundred yards up the hill.

Then a sports story is mentioned on here. A mediocre male weightlifter suddenly winning awards by competing as a woman.

Oh, whatever, I don't like sport anyway.
Then another one. Then someone in cycling, fell running, roller derby, football, cricket, golf.

Then suddenly it appears to be less about sport, and more about women being disadvantaged.

The crampons come out and you advance another few hundred yards up the hill.

Then you notice that a 19-year-old boy has been elected as labour's women's officer. Oh well, he probably feels like a woman inside. That's gender dysphoria, right?

Except he starts to compile a secret list of all women who disagree with him to get them ousted from the party. Despite his remit being to include as many women as possible in the party. Claims he can get pregnant in that biology is irrelevant.

Then you start to notice intimidating tactics against women. Meetings to discuss the upcoming law change are targetted, a 60-year-old woman is hit at speakers corner. Venues pull out, peoples jobs are threatened, they are doxxed online, they are reported to the police for disagreeing.

You scramble up towards the peak of the hill.

Then someone tells you about autogynephilia, and all the men's rights activists flocking to the trans movement. You realise that it is actually true that the government is legislating to legitimise a fetish.

You peak. You look back down the hill and can't believe you ever stood at the bottom.

Then you read of 2 transwomen, one of whom has been asked to speak at the Women's March. Who claims that being treated like a piece of meat by men is sexy and objectification is hot. And because they are woman, they speak on behalf of women. And the other one who claims that women are allowed to go to the Women's March, as long as they don't talk about their reproductive systems. You know, the very basis of women's oppression. Because it excludes men. The ones who are doing the oppressing.
And you peak all over again.

This keeps going.

You look at the handful of men with gender dysphoria and how to include them, and wish, with all your heart, that it could be that simple again.'

This post was written in 2018 and is as pertinent now as it was then.

I think the difference to 2018 is back then we thought we were in the Peak District, but it increasingly feels like we're in the Himalayas. Just when you think there are no greater heights for this to reach, another one looms into view.

oldwomanwhoruns · 11/02/2025 09:20

Good point @Datun. We'll be listening to DU with interest this morning - even if he does start off by following orders, will the mask slip as he gets riled?

Datun · 11/02/2025 09:21

Bannedontherun · 11/02/2025 09:20

barristers are not allowed to coach witnesses in the UK

Ah ok. I did not know that. What about his solicitor?

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.