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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #10

1000 replies

nauticant · 10/02/2025 15:51

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9

OP posts:
Thread gallery
27
Stepfordian · 11/02/2025 08:43

It’s interesting that 20 years ago had a man insisted on changing in the women’s changing room he would’ve been sacked immediately, it blows my mind that not only has he managed to get her suspended from work and that he’s actually turning up to a tribunal to defend his actions, but that the NHS let him, how can people not see that the emperor isn’t wearing any clothes?!

KnottyAuty · 11/02/2025 08:43

eulittleb831 · 11/02/2025 07:05

In response to being asked whether he was a biological female, the smarmy response was that "I am not a robot so therefore I am biological, I identify as female so therefore I am a biological female."

Read that again.

NC needs to keep him pinned in that chair. Hoisted by his own petard springs to mind.

I found myself with a bad case of the ick, googling “psychopath”.

Where’s the line between pushing the boundaries of ideology and madness? We must be walking the tightrope

BonfireLady · 11/02/2025 08:46

BonfireLady · 11/02/2025 07:43

This (and the post you quoted) is a key point for me in a nutshell: now that I've settled on atheism, I find much of religious belief to be non-sensical.

Transubstantiation, creationism, the idea that a virgin can give birth etc etc. If someone was in court expressing either a heartfelt or feigned belief that this was all true - much like Dr U and his belief that it's possible to be a female by way of self-ID and that biological sex is nebulous - then IMO it would sound completely mad. Not remotely WORIADS. Therefore, from an objective point of view, I'll accept that Dr U and others say that they hold a belief in gender identity and that it's just as WORIADS as any other belief that lots of people hold, or say they hold. But in both cases, "respectfully"** accepting that people hold a belief doesn't involve being forced to accept it as true.

Just as I wouldn't accept transubstantiated wine in blood banks, science lessons replacing the big bang with creationism, biology lessons teaching children that under some circumstances a human child can be conceived without sperm etc, I won't accept the Dr Us of this world forcing their belief onto society as if it's fact.

Thankfully Catholics, Protestants and others stopped all the religious enforcement in the UK a long time ago. Unfortunately, the radicalisation and harm (to self and others) associated with gender identity belief is more akin to how religion was historically enforced than the way that it fits in the UK today. Personally, I'd like to see gender identity belief viewed through a Prevent lens when it comes to children and young people being drawn towards it and how it might impact them.

But on the theme of this thread, the idea that the NHS thinks it makes sense to force non-believers to accept Dr U as a woman in women's changing rooms is appalling. Hopefully what we're seeing gradually happening in the UK is people waking up to the fact that gender identity belief is inherently extreme in and of itself, unlike common or garden religious belief, and it has tramped all over women's rights (men's too but to a lesser degree e.g. freedom of association for gay men where transmen are now self-IDing as gay men), freedom of speech and the safety of children and young people. Isla Bryson, women's sports, the Edinburgh Rape Crisis centre debacle, this NHS case and more all show it up for exactly what it is in relation to women's rights.

**I'll accept that it wasn't particularly respectful that I called both religious belief and gender identity belief mad when examined in detail. FWIW I don't do this IRL with either of them - I just say that I don't believe in god and I don't believe that we all have a gender identity.

Edited

Damn it. Just realised I broke one of my own "rules" and used a pronoun. Ha!

When I have conversations IRL, I completely avoid using pronouns for anyone who has a trans identity that differs from their sex, unless it's a "they/them/their" that fits naturally into a sentence, like the one I've used in this one. Three main reasons:

  1. I will not be a part of any child's social transition, in line with the strong caution from the Cass Report that "social transition is not a neutral act" (most of my IRL conversations relate to gender identity and autism conflation in children)

  2. I won't say something I don't believe in. I used to do so, but only for adults, where I didn't think it mattered and thought that it was more important to "be kind" e.g. for a work colleague. I saw it as similarly innocuous and polite to joining in with hymns during a wedding service - I'm not going to upstage the happy couple by staging a protest re the lyrics. I don't see it as kind any more, because many of the adults who are caught up in this mess are vulnerable to conflation of the root cause of their distress too. No, I don't mean the ones who fly in from Málaga Airport, I mean the genuinely vulnerable ones.

  3. using sex-based pronouns can distract from the points being discussed and can change how the conversation is perceived. If I had done this during my conversations with my daughter's school and CAMHS, I believe I would be in a far more precarious position when it comes to safeguarding her against a conflated understanding of autism/GI because I would have been managed as the main problem (unfortunately I am seen this way by some, but thankfully not everyone I speak to). When I put it on par with religious belief in how I view it and how I speak about it IRL, this really is genuine: I genuinely don't believe in either god or gender identity and I genuinely won't accept being forced to do so.

Anyway, back to Dr U.... I wonder what advice JR imparted ahead of today's cross examination. I'm guessing it involved reining in the preaching and acting more like a scared victim. I'm sure NC is ready to unpick that.

Edited to add more detail on the difference between vulnerable adults and those that aren't.

nauticant · 11/02/2025 08:46

@miIIicant

Your comment on thread #11 about the Chief Executive of NHS Fife, see here:

https://x.com/MJHerbert/status/1887066867337924792

If you wish to express your outrage at the treatmeny of Nurse Sandie Peggie, Carol Potter is the Chief Executive of NHS Fife and can be contacted by email at [email protected].

OP posts:
myplace · 11/02/2025 08:46

FriedGold32 · 11/02/2025 08:37

I see the self proclaimed Ultras are on Twitter again moaning about Naomi's use of language, incredibly. I really find some of these people unbearable.

I think we’re the ultras. They declared us Ultra for being rude, rigid and disrespectful. Apparently if a trans identifying man is polite in company and claps when we speak, we should treat them as an honorary woman and use preferred pronouns as a reward for their kindness to us.

FriedGold32 · 11/02/2025 08:50

Priddy · 11/02/2025 08:40

Who? I'm on Twitter, I hadn't noticed. I'd call myself an ultra, in that I think there's no compromise possible with TRAs.

KJK and that Alessandra woman whose sole contribution to the cause seems to be moaning about whatever Sex Matters are doing on Twitter.

https://x.com/AlessandraAster/status/1888974183511564764

x.com

https://x.com/AlessandraAster/status/1888974183511564764

MJHereWeGo · 11/02/2025 08:52

KnottyAuty · 11/02/2025 08:43

I found myself with a bad case of the ick, googling “psychopath”.

Where’s the line between pushing the boundaries of ideology and madness? We must be walking the tightrope

This.

I fell down a rabbit hole around the definition of 'Delusional Disorder' - If I walk around insisting that I am Jesus and everyone should treat me as Jesus, I could be diagnosed with Psychosis or Delusional Disorder....but DU....

(and worse DU could be the one doing the diagnosis!!!!)

Delusional disorder is a type of psychotic disorder. Its main symptom is the presence of one or more delusions. A delusion is an unshakable belief in something that's untrue.

Priddy · 11/02/2025 08:52

If the judge rules in this man's favour, the judge looks utterly idiotic, not to mention misogynistic.
And if Sandie loses, she can appeal. Maya Forstater lost the first time.
Trans ideology is running out of road, bit by bit. I sincerely hope Sandie wins, too. I can't imagine a world where she doesn't. But we'll get there in the end.

It could actually help if Sandie loses. Maya lost in the first tier of the ET but won on appeal, and because it was second tier it established legal precedent and the fact that GC views are worthy of respect in a democratic society. So this judge might actually do us a favour by finding for Fife NHS. Though frankly I'm not sure, given the evidence that appears to be stacking up of mishandling, lack of policies, lack of safeguarding, an apparent attempt to cover up Fife's processes and so on, it would be possible for even a heavily biased judge to find sufficient reason to find for Fife NHS. I presume he's aware that there are the best part of 200 people watching and listening? Which reminds me, I need to log in for today's thrills.

Waitwhat23 · 11/02/2025 08:54

Priddy · 11/02/2025 08:40

Who? I'm on Twitter, I hadn't noticed. I'd call myself an ultra, in that I think there's no compromise possible with TRAs.

It seems to be a disagreement as to whether NC should have used the term cis i.e. 'what would you call cis' in an effort to make DU answer the questions rather than him just repeating that he didn't understand perfectly normal language -

https://x.com/MForstater/status/1889220063716339970

x.com

https://x.com/MForstater/status/1889220063716339970

MustBeThursday · 11/02/2025 08:55

I do not believe that DU has never used a patient's biological sex (actual sex not DUs ridiculous self definition) to inform his medical practice with regard to understanding test results or appropriate dosages of meds etc. It would be extremely dangerous to practice medicine without taking the patient's sex into account.

So he's either lied under oath about it or he's unfit to practice. Wouldn't it be something if similar questions were posed to the other doctor giving evidence - it would highlight how ridiculous DUs assertions about sex being nebulous are.

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 11/02/2025 08:55

This morning I found a nebulous dog whistle amongst the fluff under the fridge
I keep blowing it but nothing seems to be happening
What am I doing wrong?

frenchnoodle · 11/02/2025 08:56

Waitwhat23 · 11/02/2025 08:54

It seems to be a disagreement as to whether NC should have used the term cis i.e. 'what would you call cis' in an effort to make DU answer the questions rather than him just repeating that he didn't understand perfectly normal language -

https://x.com/MForstater/status/1889220063716339970

Edited

If she did that it would give him the satisfaction of having her use the language he dictated.

This whole thing, is about control.

Waitwhat23 · 11/02/2025 08:56

Saw this on Twitter and it made me laugh.

More seriously, the University of Dundee's reputation must be circling the drain at this point.

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #10
Halsall · 11/02/2025 08:57

Absolutely - I wrote a note to myself - "can't extrapolate beyond his own experience"

I'm having trouble keeping up - every time I go to post what I wanted, 10 more posts appear! - but I just wanted to quote this from a PP. It really struck me suddenly as exactly the sort of observation that Upton, as a doctor, might be writing about patients in severe distress. And there’s something very disturbing about that thought given the torrent of frankly surreal stuff we heard pouring out of his mouth yesterday. He should not be allowed anywhere near patients imho.

Priddy · 11/02/2025 08:57

FriedGold32 · 11/02/2025 08:50

KJK and that Alessandra woman whose sole contribution to the cause seems to be moaning about whatever Sex Matters are doing on Twitter.

https://x.com/AlessandraAster/status/1888974183511564764

I've never thought of KJK as an ultra and I've never heard of Alessandra Aster — and I've been fighting gender ideology for 15 years and on Twitter for 12 years. You do know you can unfollow/ mute them if you don't like them, I assume?

BonfireLady · 11/02/2025 08:57

For the benefit of any lurkers who might be new, re Málaga Airport: look up the international airport codes. Then maybe read this interesting blog:

https://archive.is/2pQIq

This infographic is useful too ⬇️

How would Sandie know if any male in the CR is from the left or right side of the umbrella? Actually there are clues but unless you know what you're looking for, you don't know because we can't see inside people's brains to know their motivations... (unless perhaps they sit in a courtroom and are enabled to share some of these out loud).

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #10
ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 11/02/2025 08:57

Shall we place friendly wagers on what time the hearing will actually start, this morning?

Since DU didn't even arrive until Christ knows when yesterday; his timekeeping is just as awful as his comb over.

I think he'll be tardy again, so i reckon 10:14.

Igneococcus · 11/02/2025 08:59

How does junior doctor rotation work? Do doctors stay at the same hospital at the end or do they move on?
I'm wondering if the hospital thought it was easier to comply with DU's demands while he's there rather than challenging him in the hope he'd be gone soon and now this cowardice is coming to bite them on the arse.

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 11/02/2025 08:59

I've got 2 phones charged. DS ill today so once again won't be able to watch the tribunal but I'll be damned if one phone dies while I'm following threads and I don't have a back up immediately.

Months ago I started having a heated debate with chatgpt about women's rights and I was aghast that it took a hard TRA stance.

Last night after watching these threads I struck up another discussion with it about this ET and it was actually quite GC in its approach.

I prompted it and said a few months ago we had a discussion like this and it said that it is sorry if it didn't understand the nuance in the situation back then however valid points have been made and women should have the right to object to their sex based rights being eroded.

I was shocked.

Waitwhat23 · 11/02/2025 08:59

frenchnoodle · 11/02/2025 08:56

If she did that it would give him the satisfaction of having her use the language he dictated.

This whole thing, is about control.

And it gave NC the perfect opportunity to display his attempt to dominate and control the discussion.

The 'oh!' from JR when NC said 'he's trying to control me' was the icing on the cake.

TimeForATerf · 11/02/2025 09:00

Just caught up. It’s hard work keeping up with this thread, Tribunal Tweets and X and all the comments.

Someone commented on X about DU being a sociopath. I googled the traits of a narcissistic sociopath and thought holy shit, if the cap fits.

He is absolutely terrifying IMO. I feel desperately sorry for his wife and family. I’ve seen the picture of their wedding kiss, him all man, her a pretty young woman, apparently they were in a band together with DU’s brother. She probably thought all her dreams had come true when she snagged the doctor with a shared love of music.

I have so many questions…… I wish I was a fly on the wall in the Upton Junior and Upton Senior households for a week.

frenchnoodle · 11/02/2025 09:01

Waitwhat23 · 11/02/2025 08:59

And it gave NC the perfect opportunity to display his attempt to dominate and control the discussion.

The 'oh!' from JR when NC said 'he's trying to control me' was the icing on the cake.

Edited

I'm not sure how controlling he is properly comes across unless you see him and his smug grins each time he slyly demands something.
I can fully understand those who are only reading the details missing this.

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 11/02/2025 09:02

TimeForATerf · 11/02/2025 09:00

Just caught up. It’s hard work keeping up with this thread, Tribunal Tweets and X and all the comments.

Someone commented on X about DU being a sociopath. I googled the traits of a narcissistic sociopath and thought holy shit, if the cap fits.

He is absolutely terrifying IMO. I feel desperately sorry for his wife and family. I’ve seen the picture of their wedding kiss, him all man, her a pretty young woman, apparently they were in a band together with DU’s brother. She probably thought all her dreams had come true when she snagged the doctor with a shared love of music.

I have so many questions…… I wish I was a fly on the wall in the Upton Junior and Upton Senior households for a week.

As someone said to me, she's probably also very deep in this ideology.

I can't help but wonder if he's as coercive and manipulative towards her as he is with the ET, but maybe he doesn't have to be because they also share the belief as well as their love for music.

TimeForATerf · 11/02/2025 09:06

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 11/02/2025 09:02

As someone said to me, she's probably also very deep in this ideology.

I can't help but wonder if he's as coercive and manipulative towards her as he is with the ET, but maybe he doesn't have to be because they also share the belief as well as their love for music.

I’m not convinced TBH, she looks thoroughly miserable, she doesn’t have the smug smirks of “his community”. So far, it looks more like in sickness and in health to me.

however, I am not a psychiatrist or a physician (not that that counts for anything if this tribunal is anything to go by 🙈).

Halsall · 11/02/2025 09:07

I feel desperately sorry for his wife and family. I’ve seen the picture of their wedding kiss, him all man, her a pretty young woman, apparently they were in a band together with DU’s brother. She probably thought all her dreams had come true when she snagged the doctor with a shared love of music

I've also seen several of them and the difference is stark. From happy and smiling to shells of their former selves - both of them, actually. But that’s 'trans joy' for you 🤷‍♀️

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