NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #10

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9

Spot on. Pronouns are anti-safeguarding lies. If adults do it, children are expected to do it too.

Wrong-sex pronouns place the person who's getting them above the person providing them. The person providing them is supposed to put the trans person's wants above their right to use language that comes naturally / is easy and which is accurate / true according to their own perception.

In KCSIE, statutory safeguarding guidance for schools, one of the definitions of emotional abuse of a child is where they are valued only insofar as they meet another's wants/needs. It may involve conveying to a child that they are worthless or unloved, inadequate, or valued only insofar as they meet the needs of another person

Let's not forget those who don't use 'preferred' wrong sex pronouns are often told they are worthless bigots.

Using wrong sex pronouns is not a matter of being kind, it is an assertion of superiority, dominance and control. As we've seen in this court case - there are ever more demands. It doesn't stop at she/her and woman now we're supposed to give up 'biological female'.

Also, if children are taught that some adults' wants override their need for accurate language it weakens safeguarding. If children can't say what's true and are trained to put someone else's needs first, how are they supposed to disclose abuse? Abusers will already be saying about all the dire consequences if they 'tell'. Gender ideology and preferred pronouns very much reinforces this type of dynamic, where the child's needs come last.

Please don’t use she and her to refer to this man. After the complete shitshow yesterday where he made it clear his complete and utter contempt and hatred of women, I find it INCREDIBLY offensive for you to use female pronouns for him.

And the fact that you have done this on a feminism board is especially galling. There will be many women on here who have suffered, in many ways, at the hands of men, no matter how these men identify.

Some comments were made about the judge sometimes saying "he". Legally Dr Upton is male. The judge is perfectly entitled to refer to him as male, since that is the legal position, but has opted to be kind because that was the advice given to judges to avoid accusation of bias.

Personally I think there is an argument that the initial advice given only to one side to consider what pronouns they use was prejudging the case. Add that to the judge's slip in using victim and he is edging closer to appeal threshold.

I am confident the ET will determine these matters properly and correctly.

In terms of (alleged) "Sexual Discrimination," inherent in the Law and the wording is discrimination based on....... sexual characteristics.

For a twerp to claim to be a female, when having no sexual characteristics of a female, does not impact on SP's claim.

Theodore is painfully irritable. But it is the employer who is responsible for exposing her to this, if Theodore was told to use the female changing rooms because he said he was a female then SP should not have been exposed to being confronted or having to confront a male in a female changing room.

Yes, I knew about the correlation between neurodivergence and gender non-conformity. I am ND myself, and I don't internally identify with a gender. I was born female but I don't feel it's part of my identity. However, I fully accept my biological sex is female, because I'm not delusional! I certainly don't feel a need to change my body, or to force other people to say I'm something I'm not.

If this tribunal had been kept private as NHS Fife wanted, I would be continuing my life in blissful ignorance. People on here are talking about peaking ten years ago, and I can't believe how long I've been walking around with my eyes closed. Multitudes of people still are, while the authorities are pandering to this GI nonsense and eroding legal protections for women right under our noses. It's horrifying.

I think letting Respondant 2 speak first was a good idea. Now we get to see what NHS Fife have to say.

Weirdly, one of the only questions he permitted himself to answer (the question of his height) is actually one of the most relevant. Women do not fear men because they sometimes say stuff that hurts our feelings. We fear them because they generally have bigger, stronger bodies than we do and they frequently use that superior brute force to hurt us or kill us. I feel as if that point needs to be made more often - if a man decides to attack us, there is often very little that even the fittest and most agile of us can do about it. And it breaks my heart to think of SP trying to assert her rights in the face of this controlling individual. She is a remarkably brave woman.

Our regular reminder that only last year, women who objected to inappropriate pronoun usage were derided labelled as "ultras".

And this present proceeding is a manifestation of the harms. It's an outstanding example of where #BeKind and "Where's the harm?" have, logically and inevitably, have brought us.

First it was calling men "she" and "her" out of politeness for their feelings. What about the confusion it causes? Or that everyone is then trying to make sure they don't make a "mistake" and get called transphobic?

Then it was redefining the word woman as a social term that includes women and men who say they're women. Because we still had "female" to express someone's sex.

Then we have a nurse suspended for objecting to her single sex space being mixed sex. The man in her space said he's a "biological female" IN COURT.

Can you really not see where pronouns for politeness lead?

Don't be worried. Win or lose, this has put the true extent of the batshit in front of mainstream media and therefore the country.

It's one thing for a lone individual to be this deluded, it's quite another to be supported by the NHS.

If the judge rules in this man's favour, the judge looks utterly idiotic, not to mention misogynistic.

And if Sandie loses, she can appeal. Maya Forstater lost the first time.

Trans ideology is running out of road, bit by bit. I sincerely hope Sandie wins, too. I can't imagine a world where she doesn't. But we'll get there in the end.

I was trying to catch up in dribs and drabs, yesterday, so missed the legal admin.

Is NC doing day 2 of Upton today or are they slotting in the NHS lady with limited availability?

💯

I think in summary we're confused. I think NHS person (Kate Searle) has been asked to be available this afternoon, but my money's on the whole of today being spent with Upton.

I actually think this is a huge strength of our pushback. Gender identity started off as a grassroots questioning of gender roles combined with growing acceptance of same-sex attraction - that's why it made its way into institutions with little resistance, because though people didn't understand EXACTLY what was being demanded we were all emerging from a genuinely oppressive set of attitudes towards gayness and gender nonconformity. So a lot of people were prepared to not understand, but to accept and get along.

Our kindness on that has now been proven to have been abused. Institutions have mindlessly undone women's rights to safety, dignity and privacy, when all they thought they were doing was letting a few unusually dressed people get on with their lives.

So I think it's good that the pushback is happening from the grassroots - a sensible course-correction from real people filtered through our laws, with more and more people now having the scales drop from their eyes about what' been allowed to happen. This is the sort of change that LASTS. Having a few politicians swan in and issue a few orders might have made things go faster, but it also would have brought out a counter-backlash from well-meaning people who just put it all down to transphobia.

Everyone needs to SEE, and cases like this are spelling out the problem far better than anything else. It also shows that the resistance is coming from real women, not just political talking heads and pundits with profiles to raise.

Case being covered shortly on LBC.

Kevin McKenna's latest Herald article, here (sorry if it's already been posted, this is an archive link)

Does the judge have to refrain from reading media coverage or is it likely that he will be aware of how this is coming across in the papers?

https://archive.is/0tbiE

Worse, it's for everyone to convincingly pretend to do so. Even while they and the doctor know they don't actually. Its about control and coercion. The 1984 analogy was absolutely perfect.

Exactly. I'm not sure he cares all that much that people believe it, just that they are forced to go along with it.

Yes. I think the case against R1 is the most significant one and the one with the best prospects and so setting that up with showing what Sandie Peggie had through no fault of her own walked in to with R2 (Upton) seems like a good way to present the case.

In all the nonsense his height question struck clarity

A 28 year old 6 ft male

Kevin McKenna's latest Herald article, here (sorry if it's already been posted, this is an archive link)

That really is an excellent article.

I see the self proclaimed Ultras are on Twitter again moaning about Naomi's use of language, incredibly. I really find some of these people unbearable.

I need an "I agree with nearly all of this" icon!

@rebmacesrevda people have been heavily invested in you walking around in ignorance, to be fair. Hence the various deceptive headlines and news reporting where ‘women’ have committed appalling crimes and been sent to women’s prison with very little awareness of what was happening because- she/her/woman.

You may not be aware the feminism board was divided in two so that some people could avoid seeing the conversation.
Threads on AIBU and chat were moved to feminism, aka the naughty corner, so our ‘bigotry’ wasn’t exposed.

Now to see several threads in trending and on active while still being in feminism- it’s a triumph for visibility and education.

FWR has been fighting censorship and heavy handed moderation for years. Women have left and started other platforms over it.

However, gradually the ground has stabilised and we have been allowed to talk almost freely. We still have ‘monitors’ who rush to report if you use an incorrect pronoun or make a sweeping statement about men who like to wear women’s clothes for any reason at all. There are even code words. 🤣

Who? I'm on Twitter, I hadn't noticed. I'd call myself an ultra, in that I think there's no compromise possible with TRAs.

Thanks brilliant MNers for these threads. Have been dipping in and out but so hard to keep up! I've got access now so I'll be logging in for a look later this morning after work and errands!