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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #10

1000 replies

nauticant · 10/02/2025 15:51

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9

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27
GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 10/02/2025 23:24

murasaki · 10/02/2025 23:21

You're right. He said he's not a robot but a biological human, and a female therefore he is a biological female.

Dp nearly fell off the sofa laughing when I reported that one to him.

My cat isn't a robot neither is my dog ergo they are biological ergo they are women too? Despite both being male.

eatfigs · 10/02/2025 23:25

All of this today is yet another evidence that this type of man understands women even less than other men. Every time with their offensive misogynistic male gaze nonsense.

murasaki · 10/02/2025 23:25

GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 10/02/2025 23:24

My cat isn't a robot neither is my dog ergo they are biological ergo they are women too? Despite both being male.

Well apparently anyone is who says they are. Even if they say it in miaow.

DuesToTheDirt · 10/02/2025 23:25

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 10/02/2025 22:16

What subjects are there still to cover with DU?

BMA registration is one.

The exchanges with BMA in respect of his complaints?

His notes on SP?

Anything else? I'm wondering how much was revealed by the new IT searches.

Has he been asked about male vs female patients? I don't think he has. Maybe it won't come up, I'm not sure what the scope of the tribunal is. But as a doctor, it's really important to know whether your patient is male or female, and if he's claiming he can't tell then he is not fit to practise.

murasaki · 10/02/2025 23:26

Or bark, sorry, I discriminated against your dog there being a cat slave myself. Mea culpa.

Enough4me · 10/02/2025 23:27

Also if a female patient asks for a female chaperone while he treats her, what would he say?

Bannedontherun · 10/02/2025 23:27

light hearted the slip of the tongue thing……

Diana Dors was known as Diana Fluck. An MC was so worried he would get her last name wrong he introduced Her as Diana Clunt

GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 10/02/2025 23:30

murasaki · 10/02/2025 23:25

Well apparently anyone is who says they are. Even if they say it in miaow.

Well the other cat "was" female but she been fettled so probably shouldn't use the female CR.......

The dog wouldn't dare go into a woman only space, because he's a good boy 🐕. Good boys stay out so they can have a sausage so bad boys stand out.

WhatterySquash · 10/02/2025 23:31

Technically, if he believes himself to be a biological female, and has no GRC, and identifies as a woman, he's saying he's not trans. Which would mean he wasn't being harassed for being trans. As he's claiming to be a biological woman, what does he think it was about him that made SP think he was male? And as a biological woman, will he take a sex test?

BettyBooper · 10/02/2025 23:31

rebmacesrevda · 10/02/2025 20:59

Honestly, I feel uncomfortable saying it! I consider myself to be liberal and tolerant, and before today I had nothing but empathy for trans people as marginalised members of society.
But this guy.... I wish I could say he's the only one, but the way he talks it sounds like a cult. The only explanation I can come up with for the blatant disregard for reality, is radicalisation. I still think Trump and Musk are dickheads, but now I know what they mean by "woke mind virus".

Check out MrMenno. He's a gay guy who does excellent explainers and songs about genderwoo. Lovely lovely man ❤️.

https://x.com/MrMennoTweets

x.com

https://x.com/MrMennoTweets

FallenSloppyDead · 10/02/2025 23:32

rebmacesrevda · 10/02/2025 21:11

It's incredible that he got the hospital management on board with his delusion. Is he really that adept at manipulation? Or are they just utterly spineless? I'm amazed/ horrified!

I think it is a common NHS hospital policy. Separate-sex changing rooms but you can choose the one that aligns with your gender identity

BettyBooper · 10/02/2025 23:34

WhatterySquash · 10/02/2025 23:31

Technically, if he believes himself to be a biological female, and has no GRC, and identifies as a woman, he's saying he's not trans. Which would mean he wasn't being harassed for being trans. As he's claiming to be a biological woman, what does he think it was about him that made SP think he was male? And as a biological woman, will he take a sex test?

So true. I was wondering earlier where a (non invasive non genital inspection, IW looking at you) sex test could just clear all this up...

murasaki · 10/02/2025 23:35

BettyBooper · 10/02/2025 23:34

So true. I was wondering earlier where a (non invasive non genital inspection, IW looking at you) sex test could just clear all this up...

Well those mouth swabs world athletics are planning on bringing in this year might just fit the bill.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 10/02/2025 23:35

fanOfBen · 10/02/2025 18:30

Not literally, as that's not among the topics. I don't know whether it has to be argued at some point, though I'd pay good money to watch Ben try... To me the hard thing will be the comparison with the long-established batshittery that is religion. I think it would be pretty hard to argue that transubstantiation is WORIADS but mutable sex isn't, for example. ETA though maybe we should just go there and declare that none of the major world religions are WORIADS...

Edited

Transubstantiation doesn't impact on women's rights, though, does it? Though it is one of the most peculiar of religious dogmas.

DuesToTheDirt · 10/02/2025 23:38

GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 10/02/2025 23:20

I've never thought about periods as a reason for women wanting privacy in changing room.

I don't know why there are single sex spaces.

I don't think its important in risk assessing to know if the person walking behind me at night is male or female.

Sex is nebulous

As an over 6 foot person in my 20s I was intimidated by the 5 foot 5 woman more than 20 years older than me

None of these sound like the thoughts or experiences of a biological woman to me but then I'm not a Doctor.

It's batshit isn't it. He "doesn't know why there are single sex spaces," yet he is insisting on his right to use one rather than the other. If he doesn't think there is any difference he can bog off back to the men's.

FallenSloppyDead · 10/02/2025 23:39

@AnnaMagnani And depressingly a bunch of men who can't imagine how awful it must be to be born in the wrong body...

I think this is probably a common feeling among men. They can't imagine how awful it must be to be a woman! Surely no sane man would say he was a woman if he wasn't....

murasaki · 10/02/2025 23:40

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 10/02/2025 23:35

Transubstantiation doesn't impact on women's rights, though, does it? Though it is one of the most peculiar of religious dogmas.

Yes, it's utterly crazy, but as you say, it doesn't affect how I live my life, this selfish man's behaviour and beliefs do.

fanOfBen · 10/02/2025 23:41

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 10/02/2025 23:35

Transubstantiation doesn't impact on women's rights, though, does it? Though it is one of the most peculiar of religious dogmas.

Mm, so you reckon it would fail the test because it can be argued to "conflict with the fundamental rights of others"? Maybe, though I think the other side would argue that there's nothing about the belief itself that does so. Well, when there's a chance to test it I will definitely contribute!

Firealarm1414 · 10/02/2025 23:49

Surely the fact that he thinks biological sex is a 'nebulous' concept means that he is a danger to patients? I'm sure there are various drugs that he may be prescribing which have different different doses, contraindications and risks depending on sex? If he can't even understand basic biology then he is unfit to practice and tbh he sounds as mentally unwell as many of his patients might be. Absolute madness. How is his wife not developing the biggest case of the ick ever seen? I hope she is.

Jerabilis · 10/02/2025 23:49

After the horror show of today I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the Sky News Press Preview focus on the new public health minister, Ashley Dalton, who doesn't believe we should have gendered bathrooms but does think people can be llamas 🤦‍♀️

IamnotwhouthinkIam · 10/02/2025 23:50

Uh, this is awful. I feel so sorry for Sandie Peggie. She is incredibly brave putting her head above the parapet and standing up for what imo the majority of people do think/believe (even if they aren’t always open about it for fear of being called Terfs or bigoted) - that a woman’s right to have same sex spaces is not trumped by someone’s belief that their gender overrides their biological sex.

Please can we stop mentioning the “male” pattern baldness though? Many biological women including myself suffer from androgenic alopecia - and often in photos it actually doesn’t look that different from the male version (we usually keep our hairline but it can still thin everywhere on top just like men).

From all the mentions on these threads of Beth Upton’s appearance, I was expecting her not to look at all female. To me in the photos I’ve seen she does - but that’s by the by as either way, I have no issue at all with her wanting to aesthetically present as a “woman” or using the name Beth or even wanting female pronouns.

But all that doesn’t actually make her a woman! The earth isn’t flat even though some people believe it is. That is the point imo, protecting our spaces and safety- not what Beth Upton looks like or even what she or others call herself.

Enough4me · 10/02/2025 23:56

I don't think he looks female. He looks like a man wearing lipstick.

nolongersurprised · 10/02/2025 23:59

mrshoho · 10/02/2025 22:24

I would also love NC to ask DU if he was at some point in the future, to require medical investigations for say suspected prostate cancer, would he be offended if his medical team acknowledged him to be biologically male? Or would he look them in the eye and declare himself to be a biological female?

He’d just “remind” NC that actual sexed bodies have no relationship to inner gender feelz. And I’m sure he’ll continue to deny forevermore that he’s male. I don’t think there more to be gained from this line of questioning from NC. She’s established that BU is a delusional TRA.

DuesToTheDirt · 10/02/2025 23:59

I have no issue at all with her wanting to aesthetically present as a “woman” or using the name Beth or even wanting female pronouns.

Pronouns are rohypnol. A man can wear a dress if he wants but why does he need female pronouns? They're ours.

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