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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #10

1000 replies

nauticant · 10/02/2025 15:51

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9

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KnottyAuty · 11/02/2025 00:16

HootyMcBoobs · 10/02/2025 22:56

I wonder if Dr Upton thinks that ovarian cysts, period pain, endometriosis, uterine fibroids, ovarian cancer, miscarriage, ectopic pregnancy, uterine prolapse, childbirth, menopause, PMT/PMS, and cervical cancer are "nebulous/ dog whistles".

Or if they are all ONLY suffered by approximately half of the population.
The half to which he does not belong.

Maybe he thinks those things don't exist either......or if they DO, then anyone can have them.
If they want.

51% of the population!

CriticalCondition · 11/02/2025 00:17

I used to think the same about the pronoun thing, it's just being polite, it doesn't do any harm. Until I read this piece.

Pronouns are Rohypnol. It's even more chilling to read after today.

https://fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

Pronouns are Rohypnol • Fair Play For Women

There’s a lot of chat around about pronouns right now. Specifically, ‘preferred’ pronouns. By which is usually meant, the pronouns a person would prefer.

https://fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns

Peregrina · 11/02/2025 00:28

Re the above, remember that both Ms Russell, Upton's barrister, and the Judge have both at various times referred to Upton as he. As the article says, it's very difficult to call someone the pronouns of the opposite sex.

KnottyAuty · 11/02/2025 00:34

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 10/02/2025 23:05

I'm going to labour the point on this further as picked up some more on X around this, specifically on women advocating their boundaries re consent & asking for female only care/support.

Lucy Hunter Blackburn from MBM is commenting here:

https://x.com/lucyhunterb/status/1888990321461141787?s=46

"A doctor working in the NHS, getting legal support on the NHS, believes that any female member of staff who has a particular difficulty sharing a changing room due to something in her personal history shouldn’t expect a properly managed single sex changing room, but/

should instead have to disclose her personal history to management and have special arrangements made. I’m thinking the woman I know who only in her late 40s disclosed with great difficulty has sexual abuse as a child./

And the elderly relative of a friend who was terrified of men and I think only a small number of her family knew why. I could be thinking too about the statistics about the proportion of women who have something in their history./

And I wonder if what is held to be appropriate for staff who have particular sensitivity around men is true for patients. And what about women who don’t have a specific incident of sexual assault but have just been made wary by a lifetime of near misses?/

*Or women from particular faiths.

But I have to hope that no NHS board would really follow that sort of logic, because it would be the behaviour of a disturbingly psychopathic organisation.

Anyway, it seems to be getting dark rather early in Scotland today.*"

In response, someone else highlights they've had to dispose prior assaults to justify her request for a female only staffed mammogram service.

https://x.com/munkihanger/status/1889035963105751279?s=46

"I had to disclose my CSA and DV to be guaranteed a woman for my mammogram."

https://x.com/munkihanger/status/1889037562138030437?s=46

"I had to get PALS involved as the screening unit said I was being unreasonable for even asking for a woman."

I've been involved in this 'fight' one way or another since 2016 and the one thing that focused my mind on all of this was female only provision on health care. I've an elderly mum, and a teen daughter, as well as being a menopausal woman in my 50s. Healthcare is the one thing that spans across demographics & that was the sharp end I've been involved in. This 'development' is one anticipated but honestly, I never thought they'd actually go this far. But it's clear this is the position adopted, across what should be female only provision, without any kind of acknowledgment this is absolutely unacceptable for many of us.

I'm actually fucking raging at this. And Upton is one of the reasons this is happening. They'd rather pander to the likes of Upton's delusions, than the needs of women/girls.

Everyone here should send an email tonight. Or send two or three. Send them to the local NHS Board, their local PALS, or GP or the GMC or their Dentist or anyone who has to get Informed Consent for treatment and ask what their policy is on gender diverse professionals?

Something like this one I just fired off -

"I am a member of the public/your patient.
I was looking on your website for guidance about gender issues.

I'd like to understand issues about informed consent having heard about the Peggie vs NHS Fife/Dr Upton currently running at Employment Tribunal (in Scotland).

I can see you have [DELETE AS APPROPRIATE no information / information for gender diverse patients, but could you please point me towards your guidance for patients on gender diverse doctors/dentists/chiropracters? Apologies if I have missed it.

I'm concerned that I would be denied treatment if I asked about the gender/sex of a doctor or wished to ask for a specific gender/sex of doctor. I don't seem to have the vocabulary I need to get my own needs met for privacy, dignity and safety while respecting others. It all seems horribly complicated and I want to make sure I am not accused of transphobia. I'd like to be clear that I am not anti-trans; I am pro-women. I identify as a woman and wish to be referred to as such

I look forward to hearing from you
Best wishes"

We are 51% of the population.
If we don't advocate for ourselves with real life paperwork and complaints, then
the Uptons of this world will control the narrative

How about sending one each for a week for starters?

IamnotwhouthinkIam · 11/02/2025 00:39

DuesToTheDirt · 10/02/2025 23:59

I have no issue at all with her wanting to aesthetically present as a “woman” or using the name Beth or even wanting female pronouns.

Pronouns are rohypnol. A man can wear a dress if he wants but why does he need female pronouns? They're ours.

Because I personally don’t see any issue using whatever pronouns or names people want. To me calling her “she/her/Beth” isn’t a big deal - just as people in relatively recent history decided dresses/skirts/makeup were usually for females, people at a further point in time decided “she/her” pronouns and certain forenames were feminine too. The two aren’t much different to me, they are just abstract gender concepts when compared to the scientific reality of biological sex.

Imo biological sex matters - we should have rights to our own changing rooms, toilets, prisons, sports and health care for safety reasons as much as anything else. Gender concepts are unimportant to me personally- so I’m happy to be socially polite and call trans people what they would like to be called. It doesnt change biological reality.

KnottyAuty · 11/02/2025 00:40

CarefulN0w · 10/02/2025 23:09

Going back to DU's seeming inability to comprehend Sandies distress at encountering him in the female CR, even when he was told that she had experienced sexual abuse, and was having to deal with heavy menstrual bleeding, where the hell is his empathy? How can he possibly put himself in his patients shoes to understand their feelings? It would be bad enough for a Dr in any specialty, but in psychiatry it's appalling. And possibly dangerous.

Absolutely - I wrote a note to myself - "can't extrapolate beyond his own experience"

In particular when NC mentioned the boys running into the girls' CR at school to intimate them. In response DU said something about how he hadn't heard of that sort of thing and implied she was describing a one-off rather than a phenomena.

But I knew exactly what she meant - the pushing at the door and sniggering etc. I'm scrabbling in my memory for specific examples because that is a long time ago and because many of these everyday things are so - well - everyday and normal. But they aren't normal for both sexes are they?

KnottyAuty · 11/02/2025 00:42

Totallymessed · 10/02/2025 23:10

I'm also extremely concerned by the idea he is working as a psychiatrist. He will have patients who actively psychotic, some will be compulsorily detained in hospital. Upton will have a huge amount of power over them, and he commented that he would consider a patient who spoke to him like SP to be (this is just me remembering) confrontational and abusive(?)

He should not be allowed anywhere near a vulnerable, mentally ill patient, let alone be in a position of considerable power over them.

It's absolutely appalling and horrifying.

As a member of the public you can express your concerns about a Dr via their website. If you softened the language a bit, your concerns are valid IMO

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 11/02/2025 00:49

"But I knew exactly what she meant - the pushing at the door and sniggering etc. I'm scrabbling in my memory for specific examples because that is a long time ago and because many of these everyday things are so - well - everyday and normal. But they aren't normal for both sexes are they?"

I'd imagine most women have a tale like this. Mine was being cornered outside by a bunch of boys who had just learned about periods. Humiliating & degrading, while still in primary school. Moving onto secondary, the mocking & intimidation got more sexualised. This is what life is like in the UK for girls - little has changed from 'my day' and by all accounts it's got far worse with social media, easily accessible porn & a lack of any real consequences for boys who think the girls are there for their amusement/entertainment.

Only a fucking man could possibly be this clueless about the reality of growing up a girl.

CriticalCondition · 11/02/2025 00:50

@IamnotwhouthinkIam So you don't agree with the article?

FannyCann · 11/02/2025 00:55

I think it is a common NHS hospital policy. Separate-sex changing rooms but you can choose the one that aligns with your gender identity

Yes it is, certainly among those 80 or so trusts that signed up to the rainbow badge scheme it's in their policies obtained by FOU.

MysticCatLady · 11/02/2025 00:55

IamnotwhouthinkIam · 11/02/2025 00:39

Because I personally don’t see any issue using whatever pronouns or names people want. To me calling her “she/her/Beth” isn’t a big deal - just as people in relatively recent history decided dresses/skirts/makeup were usually for females, people at a further point in time decided “she/her” pronouns and certain forenames were feminine too. The two aren’t much different to me, they are just abstract gender concepts when compared to the scientific reality of biological sex.

Imo biological sex matters - we should have rights to our own changing rooms, toilets, prisons, sports and health care for safety reasons as much as anything else. Gender concepts are unimportant to me personally- so I’m happy to be socially polite and call trans people what they would like to be called. It doesnt change biological reality.

Quite a lot of us started off not having any problems with using people's preferred pronouns until we 'peaked ' and then had massive problems with it. Give it time...

Ladyof2025 · 11/02/2025 01:00

Firealarm1414 · 10/02/2025 23:49

Surely the fact that he thinks biological sex is a 'nebulous' concept means that he is a danger to patients? I'm sure there are various drugs that he may be prescribing which have different different doses, contraindications and risks depending on sex? If he can't even understand basic biology then he is unfit to practice and tbh he sounds as mentally unwell as many of his patients might be. Absolute madness. How is his wife not developing the biggest case of the ick ever seen? I hope she is.

Edited

This. Ten years ago a medical doctor openly declaring that he was a biological female, or calling biological sex 'nebulous' would have been suspended pending psychatric assessment and would probably never be allowed to practice again.

What has changed? Propaganda!

Ladyof2025 · 11/02/2025 01:08

I am eager to know what his wife thinks of his insistence and determination to get inside women's changing rooms.

Datun · 11/02/2025 01:11

I hope Naomi asks Ms Serle thinks Upton is a biological woman.

I hope every single representative of Fife is asked the same question. Let's see whether or not they are prepared to agree with batshit.

nolongersurprised · 11/02/2025 01:14

Totallymessed · 10/02/2025 23:10

I'm also extremely concerned by the idea he is working as a psychiatrist. He will have patients who actively psychotic, some will be compulsorily detained in hospital. Upton will have a huge amount of power over them, and he commented that he would consider a patient who spoke to him like SP to be (this is just me remembering) confrontational and abusive(?)

He should not be allowed anywhere near a vulnerable, mentally ill patient, let alone be in a position of considerable power over them.

It's absolutely appalling and horrifying.

Surely he’s just doing a junior doctor rotation in psychiatry rather than working as a consultant psychiatrist. He seems very junior. He’s never done and O and G rotation, based on his comment that it’s a doctor who “records” a baby’s sex after delivery.

Circumferences · 11/02/2025 01:15

I hope Stonewall are happy.
They gave transvestites an inch. Now look.

Any wife of a transvestite will wish they never knew about it.

eatfigs · 11/02/2025 01:16

MysticCatLady · 11/02/2025 00:55

Quite a lot of us started off not having any problems with using people's preferred pronouns until we 'peaked ' and then had massive problems with it. Give it time...

Yes and realising that all of it started with these polite lies like opposite-sex pronouns.

Peregrina · 11/02/2025 01:29

It's very strange: Dr Upton thinks it difficult to discern sex but the World Athletics body is going to do so by (re) introducing cheek swabs. That is only for elite athletes, but it's to be hoped that it will make it clear to those in lower level competition that anyone who has gone through male puberty doesn't belong in women's sport.

I don't know how difficult it would be to test people at lower levels, but just thinking about how covid tests became ubiquitous when the need to develop a simple test arose, could something similar be developed for sports?

Peregrina · 11/02/2025 01:33

Sorry I see the cheek swab test is at the moment out for consultation, but it's a positive step forward.

WearyAuldWumman · 11/02/2025 01:40

Ladyof2025 · 11/02/2025 01:08

I am eager to know what his wife thinks of his insistence and determination to get inside women's changing rooms.

I know we're being asked not to discuss his appearance...but has he had his nose slimmed down to match his wife's?

Ramblingnamechanger · 11/02/2025 06:08

I would like to know what the toilet arrangements are at the court and which one he is using….

MJHereWeGo · 11/02/2025 06:35

I've started to feel a little sorry for KS this morning. The stress of being dragged into this and on such a public stage. I suspect what she did was clumsy and an attempt to appease DU (with huge, unfair consequences for SP) and that will become clear under her questioning.

Also, having had experience of the mental health system, for people with serious mental illnesses, the idea that DU has part power to detain people, is horrifying.

I, for one, will be writing to GMC.

FannyCann · 11/02/2025 06:46

What is the plan for today? Is it KS and then back to DU? NC isn't finished with him is she?

So annoying. Busy day today, I at least managed to listen in via my phone a little bit yesterday. I have tomorrow and Thursday off and will be able to tune in a bit then but think I'll have missed the best bits!

MJHereWeGo · 11/02/2025 06:52

NC said only half way through DU.
I understood she wanted to complete DU then move to KS, possibly this afternoon. But watching her respond at the time I wonder is that possibly optimistic....

eulittleb831 · 11/02/2025 07:05

KnottyAuty · 10/02/2025 23:19

Thank you! This refers to mention of a robot - which I couldn't confirm in the TT notes. Can anyone else please confirm I didn't imagine this?

In response to being asked whether he was a biological female, the smarmy response was that "I am not a robot so therefore I am biological, I identify as female so therefore I am a biological female."

Read that again.

NC needs to keep him pinned in that chair. Hoisted by his own petard springs to mind.

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