NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #10

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9

I am still trying to work out whether today actually happened or if it is the product of an UTI induced fever dream.

That wall to wall batshit could never have happened in a British court of law surely. Could it?

If I understood correctly, they are starting early in the morning and I think they said they will break late for lunch and call KS at 2pm. Obviously there's no guarantee that they will be finished with DU by then, but I think they agreed to break for her anyway. It was said tomorrow is the only day KS can appear in person. NC said it was important for KS to give evidence in person and that they would be calling her to give evidence if the other side didn't. Or something like that.

She and his dad were both there.

Is it true he wants to, through regular heterosexual sex, impregnate his partner? (Reading comments on The Times on the article to the right as is the way when comments are switched off to an original article).
Just read this and I don't understand how he thinks he's thinking like a woman at all. I saw reference to him having a female partner earlier but thought I may have misread that.
His photo gave me the creeps too, thin long hair with male pattern receeding - may need a comb over soon.

The judge mustn't do anything that indicates bias. Saying anything that suggests he has a view on one of the important points in dispute in this case would breach that rule and give Fife/DU an easy case for appeal if they lose. Since it is in dispute, the court absolutely must recognise arguments that DU is female even if they think it is batshit crazy.

I'm going to labour the point on this further as picked up some more on X around this, specifically on women advocating their boundaries re consent & asking for female only care/support.

Lucy Hunter Blackburn from MBM is commenting here:

https://x.com/lucyhunterb/status/1888990321461141787?s=46

"A doctor working in the NHS, getting legal support on the NHS, believes that any female member of staff who has a particular difficulty sharing a changing room due to something in her personal history shouldn’t expect a properly managed single sex changing room, but/

should instead have to disclose her personal history to management and have special arrangements made. I’m thinking the woman I know who only in her late 40s disclosed with great difficulty has sexual abuse as a child./

And the elderly relative of a friend who was terrified of men and I think only a small number of her family knew why. I could be thinking too about the statistics about the proportion of women who have something in their history./

And I wonder if what is held to be appropriate for staff who have particular sensitivity around men is true for patients. And what about women who don’t have a specific incident of sexual assault but have just been made wary by a lifetime of near misses?/

*Or women from particular faiths.

But I have to hope that no NHS board would really follow that sort of logic, because it would be the behaviour of a disturbingly psychopathic organisation.

Anyway, it seems to be getting dark rather early in Scotland today.*"

In response, someone else highlights they've had to dispose prior assaults to justify her request for a female only staffed mammogram service.

https://x.com/munkihanger/status/1889035963105751279?s=46

"I had to disclose my CSA and DV to be guaranteed a woman for my mammogram."

https://x.com/munkihanger/status/1889037562138030437?s=46

"I had to get PALS involved as the screening unit said I was being unreasonable for even asking for a woman."

I've been involved in this 'fight' one way or another since 2016 and the one thing that focused my mind on all of this was female only provision on health care. I've an elderly mum, and a teen daughter, as well as being a menopausal woman in my 50s. Healthcare is the one thing that spans across demographics & that was the sharp end I've been involved in. This 'development' is one anticipated but honestly, I never thought they'd actually go this far. But it's clear this is the position adopted, across what should be female only provision, without any kind of acknowledgment this is absolutely unacceptable for many of us.

I'm actually fucking raging at this. And Upton is one of the reasons this is happening. They'd rather pander to the likes of Upton's delusions, than the needs of women/girls.

So the judge using the word 'victim' could be used as an appeal factor for Sandie?

Just caught up with all your wit and wisdom. Well done wims, and honorary wims, oh crap, no that's how all this nonsense started non-wims 😂

I may have skimmed through a few pages that were basically just WTF, this is as mad as a box of frogs, a Dr who doesn't know how to make babies, and so on, but I think I got the gist.

This reads like a headline from The Onion

Sorry, there must've been some random * in there, the bold isn't my emphasis!

Is it true he wants to, through regular heterosexual sex, impregnate his partner?

I was persuaded by the suggestion that this might be a blending of the facts of this case with those of the Darlington case, where what you wrote does seem to be the broadly accurate.

Going back to DU's seeming inability to comprehend Sandies distress at encountering him in the female CR, even when he was told that she had experienced sexual abuse, and was having to deal with heavy menstrual bleeding, where the hell is his empathy? How can he possibly put himself in his patients shoes to understand their feelings? It would be bad enough for a Dr in any specialty, but in psychiatry it's appalling. And possibly dangerous.

I have several The Onion annuals from back in the day. Loved it. And still do.

Then the world turned into The Onion. I love that considerably less.

On its own probably not - it would probably be viewed as a slip of the tongue. In conjunction with other evidence that the panel had made up their minds before hearing the evidence, yes, I suspect it could.

It's certainly not a day we'll forget in a hurry! And it's supplied enough quotes of TRA madness to keep Helle busy with TRAs for EVER!

I'm also extremely concerned by the idea he is working as a psychiatrist. He will have patients who actively psychotic, some will be compulsorily detained in hospital. Upton will have a huge amount of power over them, and he commented that he would consider a patient who spoke to him like SP to be (this is just me remembering) confrontational and abusive(?)

He should not be allowed anywhere near a vulnerable, mentally ill patient, let alone be in a position of considerable power over them.

It's absolutely appalling and horrifying.

Just thinking, is there not something wrong where he doesn't have to disclose his trans status, but she has to disclose sexual assault and menstrual bleeding?

The judge also used 'his' when talking about DU as well, so a slip both ways from the judge

True, but victim is an emotive term and a choice, where as his is the evidence of the judge's eyes, so I view them slightly differently.

Thank you! This refers to mention of a robot - which I couldn't confirm in the TT notes. Can anyone else please confirm I didn't imagine this?

I've never thought about periods as a reason for women wanting privacy in changing room.

I don't know why there are single sex spaces.

I don't think its important in risk assessing to know if the person walking behind me at night is male or female.

Sex is nebulous

As an over 6 foot person in my 20s I was intimidated by the 5 foot 5 woman more than 20 years older than me

None of these sound like the thoughts or experiences of a biological woman to me but then I'm not a Doctor.

You're right. He said he's not a robot but a biological human, and a female therefore he is a biological female.

Dp nearly fell off the sofa laughing when I reported that one to him.

That sounds so familiar, except that in my wife's case she was accused and put through a full blown disciplinary without the involvement of any man at any time. She had done nothing worthy of more than a quick check of her perspective, but nearly lost her career over it.

Yes it was one of the more bizarre things he came out with today, clearly been picking up rhetorical tips from Rachel McKinnon!

Although it'll probably be fine I just don't trust you lot not to post a couple of hundred posts overnight so with reluctance I've set up the continuation thread very much ahead of time.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11

Please don't go mad on that thread while this one is being filled meaning that the continuity of the discussion becomes muddled. Therefore, if you would continue here, and once this thread is full, go over to the new thread that would be great. Thanks.