NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #10

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9

Wasn't it Kate Bush who wrote Wuthering Heights at 14? This is masterful, I wasn't familiar.......

“I Am Not A Dress” by @brandubh4
We are women, we are warriors of steel.
Woman is something no man will ever feel.
Woman is not a skill that any man can hone.
Woman is our word and it is ours alone.
I am not a dress to be worn on a whim,
A man in a dress is nonetheless a him.
Women are not simply what we wear.
If this offends you, I do not care.
I am not an idea in any man’s mind
And my purpose in life is not to be kind.
So while my rights are trampled every day of the week,
I will not stand by being docile and meek.
I am not defined by sexist lies.
There is more to a woman than that shallow guise,
That guise of dresses, bikinis, and skirts.
Those clothes are not what womanhood is worth.
I am not a bitch, a TERF, a whore, a slag,
Hysterical, witch, a slut, a hag.
No, I am a woman. I am a female,
Who will not let her rights be put up for sale.
I am not defined by what men are not,
So to hell with cis misogynistic rot.
I am a woman, I’m not as subset of my sex.
If this makes me a dinosaur, so be it, I’m a T-Rex.
I am not a bleeder nor a menstruator,
A womb carrier or a uterus haver.
These words and phases are such a sham.
Just call me woman, it’s who I am.
We are women, we are warriors of steel.
Woman is something no man will ever feel.
Woman is not a skill that any man can hone.
Woman is our word and it is ours alone.

It was different today, and I can't remember who said it the other day. For some reason I'm thinking it was JR

What subjects are there still to cover with DU?

BMA registration is one.

The exchanges with BMA in respect of his complaints?

His notes on SP?

Anything else? I'm wondering how much was revealed by the new IT searches.

I don't know if ET are different to other kinds of courts but is there any reason the judge couldn't have reminded DU and the wider court that it's an established fact that DU is male and therefore won't recognise arguments that he is female?

I'm just trying to work out whether being allowed to lie so egregiously under oath is unique to this case.

I would love NC to ask if DU has always used the ladies' and, if not, what changed and how is anyone not familiar with inner laydee essence to know.

I thought it was JR who said there were three trans people. And DU indicated he was aware of one and there might be more but noone had come out (my paraphrase) to him.

I think it does present a problem if an NHS mental health service requires mentally unwell patients to call a man by a woman's name. There are unisex names, but Beth isn't one, at least in the UK. It's a woman's name, and Dr Upton is a man.

If people who are so mentally unwell that they are receiving NHS psychiatry (an incredibly high bar to reach) are being required to validate the lie that Dr Upton is female, I think that's abusive. People who are possibly struggling with reality, suffering delusions or hallucinations, should not be made to participate in an obvious lie when they are not on firm ground with reality already, due to their illness. Pronouns are rohypnol but making the mentally ill join in with their doctor's delusion is .another level of gaslighting if you ask me.

All the stuff about the supposed clinical incidents! The resus room and the vanishing patient. And whether there are Datix entries for them, and if not why not.

That is right, between them all after the close of proceedings...... the Defence didn't fare well with closing arrangements and JR's attempts to shut down NC's questioning of the bloke, who isn't doing his cause - for his people and his community - any good at all, fell on deaf ears.

@eulittleb831 Kate Bush wrote Wuthering Heights when she was 18, I think - still impressively young! I wondered when I first heard Brandubh's poem if her mum had had some input but iirc her mum denied having any hand in it.

NC mentioned it as they were talking about the arrangements for tomorrow's hearing. You would find the TT tweets at the end of the last session from today
https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr

He's been vague/evasive so far on what makes him a woman, female even, when asked about his views/understanding so far. I think he'll have been preparing to avoid any specifics on his 'journey' so it'll be interesting if NC hits on an angle where the answer is compelled by the judge.

I do think the judge/ET don't really know what to do with his responses that deny reality in its entirety. But if the court has declared him male, for the purposes of evidence from SP & Qs from NC, it's hard to understand the reluctance to push when he's waffling utter bollocks.

I’m not male, says trans doctor Beth Upton in NHS changing room row

www.thetimes.com/article/2bb6ea99-e2b7-40be-806e-42a2c9bf1ed4?shareToken=ccd7b0ecb8519a2067cbdb760eccf9ce

Photo is a cracker.

"All the stuff about the supposed clinical incidents! The resus room and the vanishing patient. And whether there are Datix entries for them, and if not why not."

Thanks, I'd forgotten that bit. There's still so much ground to cover for NC. And the closer she gets to anything that exposes DU, I think the more he'll try and deflect/deny/avoid in his responses.

I would also love NC to ask DU if he was at some point in the future, to require medical investigations for say suspected prostate cancer, would he be offended if his medical team acknowledged him to be biologically male? Or would he look them in the eye and declare himself to be a biological female?

genuinely lol'd at your username

It might be helpful to NC when questioning the NHS staff - they denied the claim that they just let anyone access the female CR. They said they assessed it on a case by case basis. They clearly didn't for DU who just used the room and then informed the supervisor. So can they produce the paperowrk for a risk assessment and policy by which to assess cases? And can they produce redacted copies of the risk assessments for the other two staff? Did they opt to use the CR? Or if not, what do they do?

I'd bet no policy or risk assessments exist and the other 2 trans people mentioned aren't changing in the ladies CR because they possibly mind about whether their colleagues need privacy....

Sorry if this has already been answered... If you open on the DT site then go to airplane mode then turn airplane mode back off you can access comments.

I'm so sorry to hear that. It's like an extreme form of self-harm. Decades from now there'll be a national inquiry into these "treatments", like the infected blood scandal. Not that that helps now, of course. People like Upton are spreading lies and manipulation, while people like your relative are suffering the fallout of it all. It's a deeply sad situation, and I think it will take many years to fully come to the attention of people with the power and inclination to intervene.

Or possibly declare no problem as a woman can have a prostate!

Thanks; that’s a good article.

She wrote The man with the child in his eyes’ aged 13

Is the photo of the CR (or a floor plan) in the public domain?

That's the one, thanks........ sometimes I forget these things, still haven't forgotten my sex though so got to be thankful.

I think I am correct that DU made more than one statement at different times so I expect that NC will want to explore exactly when DU raised "patient care concerns" about SP