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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #10

1000 replies

nauticant · 10/02/2025 15:51

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9

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Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/02/2025 18:48

On BBC now https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gx07xdpw5oo^

Impressive level of pronoun avoidance.

myplace · 10/02/2025 18:49

So, some bouquets from me:

To the women who have primed and informed the players in this, supported Sandie, contributed to the discussion that has given Naomi Cunningham her ammunition.
To Naomi Cunningham who must hang out here when she isn’t busy elsewhere.
To Sandie, for obvious reasons.

To the women dealing with trans identifying DC whether adult or not.

And all of you who have fallen foul of our shit show desperate NHS that’s distracted by the serious business of saving health by fucking trans ridiculousness.

Mochudubh · 10/02/2025 18:51

I've been out most of the day so still only half-way through the previous thread but I've just seen him on Reporting Scotland and by God is he cocky?

Not only are last week's scarf and toorie bunnet combo gone but the smirk to camera as he got into the car....he really thinks he's booted it out of the park doesn't he?

Theeyeballsinthesky · 10/02/2025 18:52

I very much doubt dr Upton has been told he’s anything less than amazing throughout his entire privileged life

NotAtMyAge · 10/02/2025 18:52

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/02/2025 18:48

On BBC now https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gx07xdpw5oo^

Impressive level of pronoun avoidance.

I came here to post that same article once I'd tracked it down to the Scotland page. Certainly an improvement on the BBC's usual willingness to use wrong-sex pronouns.

RogueFemale · 10/02/2025 18:54

myplace · 10/02/2025 18:40

@Signalbox I can’t agree harder on that 1 in 3 statistic. A friend says she’s never experienced it. It’s hard to push though, because I feel I’m risking a friendship and suggesting she must be terribly unattractive to be so little abused.

I don’t know whether she’s minimised the routine, constantly groping- and would accuse me of over reacting- or literally had different experiences from me and what on earth that might mean.

It’s a minefield I’m not ready to tackle.

I mean it’s been fine for years but back in the day it was continuous from the age of about 14.

Agreed. I've been sexually assaulted so many times I can't even remember all of them, I regarded it as 'normal' in my teens and twenties.

RedToothBrush · 10/02/2025 18:55

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/02/2025 18:48

On BBC now https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gx07xdpw5oo^

Impressive level of pronoun avoidance.

Pronouns are about power and compliance.

They are not neutral. And I do think the penny on this slowly but surely starting to drop.

Anorexia often isn't about food and wanting to be thin. It's about power and control (or representative of a feeling of having lost power and control and wanting to regain that sense with the only thing you can control - your food intake). Yet most people still think it's always about an obsession with food.

This isn't a new phenomena we are seeing. It's a new manifestation of old issues.

AlbertCamusflage · 10/02/2025 18:55

Looks photoshopped. I'd be tempted to avoid comments about his appearance.

Skyellaskerry · 10/02/2025 18:55

@nauticant and everyone THANK YOU for all the threads and updates, amazing. I’ve just caught up - going to have to make up some work time as once I started I couldn’t stop, I couldn’t believe what I was reading.

Scout2016 · 10/02/2025 18:58

Could an observer report him as a fitness to practice concern? You can be reported for social media posts, but are Tribunals somehow protected? Only he spouted a lot of medically questionable guff.
I would like NC to ask him
If ill would he want tests run by male or female results criteria?
What about women who object to him being there due to religion?
Would he agree his identity is nebulous?

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 10/02/2025 18:59

@eatfigs @myplace @Appalonia
If you saw the same photos on Twix as I did, this was debunked. The earrings are not the same, but they are similar (flowers vs stars). Let's not accidentally spread misinformation.

anyolddinosaur · 10/02/2025 18:59

I hope anyone still in the Labour Party will file a complaint against this MP https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267833-lws-in-nottingham-sat-8th-feb

FannyCann · 10/02/2025 19:01

Dr Upton is a very dangerous Dr.
He oozes superiority, intellectual snobbery, intransigence and a complete failure to consider there might be alternative opinions/answers. He bullies women and probably anyone else who questions his authority and superior knowledge.

The NHS has form for not listening to patients, especially women and these sorts of Drs are the ones who miss serious diagnoses because they know better.

Practically all clinical staff in the NHS (nurses and Drs anyway) are having to spend a whole day (plus additional e-learning) on the Oliver McGowan training.

Oliver was a teenager with autism, who died after being given anti-psychotic medication despite medical staff being told repeatedly by both Oliver and his parents that he had reacted badly to it in the past.

The focus of the training is about listening to people with learning difficulties but imo anyone can fall foul of staff who know better and fail to listen to patients.

I have a patient whose cancer diagnosis took at least six months longer than it should have due to her symptoms being dismissed as post natal depression/ natural tiredness due to being a new Mum etc. This has, of course impacted the staging of her cancer (more advanced) and means there was never any prospect of a cure by the time she was diagnosed. Many other people have similar stories.

He needs keeping well away from patients.

www.hee.nhs.uk/our-work/learning-disability/current-projects/oliver-mcgowan-mandatory-training-learning-disability-autism

www.olivermcgowan.org/

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #10
myplace · 10/02/2025 19:01

Thanks @ICouldHaveCheckedFirst damn I fell for it.

WhatterySquash · 10/02/2025 19:01

During another Twitter exchange in 2016 Ms Dalton was asked whether people should be taken seriously if they decided they were a llama.
She replied: 'Yes. And treat you with dignity and respect.

But that's not very compatible with being treated like llama. You'd have to be tied up by the muzzle, left to sleep in a shed (or similar, not fully up on llama husbandry), wee and poo on the ground, eat kibble etc.

That's what I never get about this identifying as an animal stuff. If you identify as a cat, llama or whatever then you should do it properly, live like one, eat the same food etc. You certainly shouldn't be in school or have a job as that's not what cats and llamas do. Any sign of treating you like a human is species-transphobic surely? And if you want anything that's appropriate to humans, not animals, then you clearly are not a cat/llama/whatever.

They could at least try to make it internally logical.

rebmacesrevda · 10/02/2025 19:01

Skyellaskerry · 10/02/2025 18:46

Me too, left wing, horrified at this issue being made into a left vs right.

Me too! Never thought I'd be agreeing with the comments under an article in the Torygraph 😅

NotAGentleReminder · 10/02/2025 19:05

myplace · 10/02/2025 18:42

His claim earlier to having faced discrimination because he’s in a same sex marriage - more appropriation.

He’s literally using his privilege to stand on a whole shit heap of victims claiming their suffering as his own.

That is a big part of TRA rhetoric. Appropriating genuine civil rights causes.

lnks · 10/02/2025 19:06

Appalonia · 10/02/2025 18:36

Apparently he's wearing the earrings his wife wore on her wedding day!

Edited as crossed posted with PP who pointed out it was not correct about the earrings

ThreeWordHarpy · 10/02/2025 19:07

I think the absolute line for me is the total denial of biological reality. Ie the babble around definition of sex, the denial of the importance of sex and even the denial of DrU’s own body - that regardless of how he identifies and feels, he has a male body.

i mean, he really said in court that he was a biological being, not a robot, and he was female therefore he was a biological female. A qualified medical doctor, under oath. There aren’t enough headbanging emojiis to express how I feel.

I agree with a PP that the case against DrU is less important than the one against NHS Fife but it was the only way of guaranteeing DrU would give evidence and I think that is vitally important for context and sunlight.

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 10/02/2025 19:08

myplace · 10/02/2025 19:01

Thanks @ICouldHaveCheckedFirst damn I fell for it.

Easily done!

lnks · 10/02/2025 19:08

NotAGentleReminder · 10/02/2025 19:05

That is a big part of TRA rhetoric. Appropriating genuine civil rights causes.

They identify into a position of oppression and then wear it like a badge of honour

HarpyOfACertainAge · 10/02/2025 19:09

I wonder if tomorrow NC will explore more whether a female patient has the right to request a female doctor (an actual female doctor - not one that declares himself one).

bananabug · 10/02/2025 19:10

BBC article regarding the tribunal today:

Transgender doctor tells tribunal 'I am not male' www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4gx07xdpw5o

Interesting that the BBC didn't use any pronouns for Doctor Upton in an attempt to not 'take sides'. I think this is positive that they realise going along with this language is bias in itself.

frenchnoodle · 10/02/2025 19:11

bananabug · 10/02/2025 19:10

BBC article regarding the tribunal today:

Transgender doctor tells tribunal 'I am not male' www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4gx07xdpw5o

Interesting that the BBC didn't use any pronouns for Doctor Upton in an attempt to not 'take sides'. I think this is positive that they realise going along with this language is bias in itself.

I bet they've not made it clear he's male then.

I think it will make me avoid the rest of the proceedings if I read it.

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