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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #10

1000 replies

nauticant · 10/02/2025 15:51

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9

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Bayonetlightbulb · 10/02/2025 19:11

Some great footage of DU striding out of court today on the Scottish news

teawamutu · 10/02/2025 19:11

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/02/2025 18:48

On BBC now https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gx07xdpw5oo^

Impressive level of pronoun avoidance.

I'm also rather enjoying the very cropped picture of Upton towering over his crew above the 'I'm not male' headline.

BackToLurk · 10/02/2025 19:11

As someone who has frequently come across TRAs saying “you’re confusing sex and gender “ and “of course transpeople know what sex they are”, I’d like to thank Dr Upton for the easy to find screenshots to accompany my “really?”

eatfigs · 10/02/2025 19:16

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 10/02/2025 18:59

@eatfigs @myplace @Appalonia
If you saw the same photos on Twix as I did, this was debunked. The earrings are not the same, but they are similar (flowers vs stars). Let's not accidentally spread misinformation.

I've asked MNHQ to remove my comment - thanks for pointing out the misinfo!

ThatsNotMyTeen · 10/02/2025 19:19

nauticant · 10/02/2025 18:41

I'm not so sure about the claim against Dr U. I think much is going to depend on whether KS's evidence is "No I did not give Dr U permission to use the women's changing rooms" or "Yes I did give Dr U permission to use the women's changing rooms"

The point about having Upton as a party was to get him into the ET hearing and for everyone to see who he is and how he thinks. That's why the NHS were compelled to make their Rule 50 privacy/anonymity application, and why it was such a great result when it failed. It doesn't matter if Sandie Peggie doesn't win against Upton. The main thing is for her to win against the NHS and a significant part of that claim is going to be based on there being an unfair process.

Edited

I agree. I’m not sure the claim against him ks going to be made out. But it forced him to take the stand and defend himself as a named respondent. Utter wanker that he is.

I know we aren’t likely to get it on here but I’m genuinely really interested how anyone can still think he’s on the right side after today?

popefully · 10/02/2025 19:19

I know focusing on DU's inconsistent beliefs probably isn't the focus of NC's case, but I'd love her to ask him
"if someone tells you a patient is male, or female, what specifically do you think they are telling you about that person? Or do you think there is no difference between the two and there is therefore no difference in how you would treat them?" (thinking about drug doses, contraception/pregnancy etc)

Kucinghitam · 10/02/2025 19:19

Bloody hell, what a day!

I have to say that the fragrant Upton is the perfect Poster Princess for educating everybody about how to Be Truly Righteous and to represent The Right Side of History.

A narcissistic, smug, slippery, coercively controlling, language and tone policing, grievance-manufacturing, attention-seeking, reality-denying, domineering, creepy Pious Fraud.

Absolute perfection.

myplace · 10/02/2025 19:21

He’s all a bit Delores Umbridge.

MarieDeGournay · 10/02/2025 19:22

Pious Fraud. - t-shirt? username? can't decide which would be best😄

eatfigs · 10/02/2025 19:24

It has to be seen, the tribunal tweets don't fully capture his sneering, condescending demeanour while he says all this crap.

NotMaroonButRaspberry · 10/02/2025 19:25

"'A very tricky situation’
The tribunal has previously heard evidence from Ms Peggie about a traumatic incident when she was 17, when she was sexually assaulted by a doctor who made an excuse to examine her breasts unnecessarily.
Ms Peggie has said the trauma caused by that incident contributed to her desire to have access to single-sex spaces at work.
Dr Upton expressed sympathy with Ms Peggie but did not agree that women who had experienced sexual trauma should have access to single-sex changing facilities that exclude trans women.
“Trans women are not males, so she would be asking specifically for trans women to be excluded from that space,” said Dr Upton. “It’s a very tricky situation... I do not think somebody’s trauma justifies them behaving in an unpleasant and disrespectful manner to their colleagues.
“We should be doing as much as is reasonably possible to make accomodation for safety. But I don’t think you can use that to put restrictions on other people who have a right to access that space.”

This is from the Telegraph article, kindly shared up the thread.

I genuinely feel sick reading this. He is appalling and needs to be stopped.

frenchnoodle · 10/02/2025 19:28

NotMaroonButRaspberry · 10/02/2025 19:25

"'A very tricky situation’
The tribunal has previously heard evidence from Ms Peggie about a traumatic incident when she was 17, when she was sexually assaulted by a doctor who made an excuse to examine her breasts unnecessarily.
Ms Peggie has said the trauma caused by that incident contributed to her desire to have access to single-sex spaces at work.
Dr Upton expressed sympathy with Ms Peggie but did not agree that women who had experienced sexual trauma should have access to single-sex changing facilities that exclude trans women.
“Trans women are not males, so she would be asking specifically for trans women to be excluded from that space,” said Dr Upton. “It’s a very tricky situation... I do not think somebody’s trauma justifies them behaving in an unpleasant and disrespectful manner to their colleagues.
“We should be doing as much as is reasonably possible to make accomodation for safety. But I don’t think you can use that to put restrictions on other people who have a right to access that space.”

This is from the Telegraph article, kindly shared up the thread.

I genuinely feel sick reading this. He is appalling and needs to be stopped.

He won't be, that's the issue, if not Fife then somewhere else will employ him.

PepeParapluie · 10/02/2025 19:28

Have just caught up - gosh what an eventful day! Jaw dropping stuff, but he totally 100% believes it all I think. Which is scary for a doctor and supposedly intelligent person.

While I can understand those saying he’s held up okay under the pressure, I don’t get the impression he’ll have come across well with the panel. Judges are good at getting a sense of people from the way they handle cross examination. They like people who straightforwardly answer the questions put, who don’t try and second guess the line of questioning and don’t argue or grandstand. It sounds like DU has done all the things judges dislike. Arguing with the barrister, being evasive, choosing what he wants to answer not answering the questions, a lack of directness etc.

I agree with those who’ve pointed out that his evidence has been a live action demonstration of his demeanour though - it will surely be hard for him to make out that he, assertive, sure-footed and self-righteous would have been left in pieces by a polite challenge from a mere woman.

WeeBisom · 10/02/2025 19:29

A couple of people have asked about the tribunal times. In case anyone is interested , the reason is the day is from 10 to 4 with an hour break is because you can only really have the energy to cross examine someone for short periods before it becomes unproductive and the witness stops giving their best evidence. It’s very stressful and tiring on witnesses. Another reason is there is a huge amount of work outside what you see in the tribunal. Counsel will be up very early preparing and looking over developments that happened in the night , lunch time is entirely taken up with work. And then after it’s not at all unusual to go back and work for the next days hearing until late at night (12 am finishes are not unusual). The judges also need time to consider paperwork and applications , and they will have other administrative business to attend to in relation to other cases. I get it seems frustratingly inefficient but there is a lot of work going on behind the scenes.

fromorbit · 10/02/2025 19:31

Upton is the perfect agent for Operation Let Them Speak.

The peaking is high. Saw a great summary on X on how bad it was.

boswelltoday

Day 6 Sandie Peggie v NHS Fife - Dr Upton’s cross-examination continued today, and it was nothing short of disastrous.

Under sustained questioning from Naomi Cunningham, he admitted that he knew Sandy Peggie was uncomfortable sharing a changing room with him but carried on anyway. Despite multiple instances of Peggie leaving the room rather than change in front of him, Upton dismissed her reaction as prejudice rather than a reasonable expectation of female-only spaces.

A key part of the morning session focused on whether self-ID would allow any man to enter female-only spaces. Cunningham used the example of “Pete,” a hypothetical male claiming to be a woman, to highlight the flaw in Upton’s argument. He admitted that sincerity is difficult to judge and that women would have no way of knowing if a trans-identifying male was genuine. This was a major concession, as it undermines the entire premise of self-ID.

When questioned on the purpose of single-sex spaces, Upton acknowledged that men commit more violent and sexual crimes than women, yet still resisted the idea that female-only spaces exist for privacy and safeguarding rather than because all men are inherently dangerous. Cunningham countered that excluding trans women from female spaces does not imply they are threats, just as women-only spaces do not assume all men are predators. Still, Upton insisted that keeping trans women out of female spaces suggested a belief that many of them were dangerous, failing to grasp the principle that these spaces are defined by sex, not intent.

The most damning moment of the morning came when Cunningham asked Upton whether he continued using the female changing room despite knowing Peggie was uncomfortable. His answer was a blunt "yes". Instead of showing any respect for a female colleague’s right to privacy, he simply carried on, expecting her to accept his presence regardless of how she felt.

In the afternoon, the session descended into a debate over language, as Upton refused to accept basic biological definitions of male and female. Cunningham stated that a biological female is someone configured to produce eggs, while a biological male is configured to produce sperm. Upton refused to accept this, dragging the discussion into circular arguments that the judge eventually had to step in and clarify.

Cunningham then accused Upton of using this language game as a form of dominance, just as he had done over Peggie in the changing room. Jane Russell, Upton’s barrister, objected, but Upton’s refusal to engage with reality only strengthened the argument that this was about power, not identity. Meanwhile, Upton complained that he had to disclose his trans status to his employer, calling it “deeply saddening.” Cunningham pointed out the obvious solution—keep male bodies out of female-only spaces entirely.

Instead of acknowledging this, Upton suggested individual changing cubicles for everyone, effectively conceding that his presence in female spaces was a problem. Cunningham pushed further, highlighting that women cannot tell by looking at someone whether they have a history of trauma or sexual violence, making the forced inclusion of males in female spaces not just unfair, but actively harmful. The session ended with Upton being accused of showing complete contempt for women’s bodily privacy and autonomy.

This case is now fully exposing the true impact of self-ID policies—where women must either submit or be punished. NHS Fife chose to back a male over a female nurse who simply wanted a single-sex space, and today’s testimony made clear just how unjustifiable that decision was. As the tribunal resumes tomorrow, Upton’s credibility is in tatters, and the bigger question remains: why is NHS Fife still defending this

2025 looks like to be the year that gender nonsense really started falling apart in a big way. Lots of amazing women started pushing at it but now it is really coming down.

Trump's actions, the oscars meltdown, Upton, oh and news dropped today that the IBA is suing the IOC for letting male boxers punch women. It is only February as well.

TeiTetua · 10/02/2025 19:31

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 10/02/2025 18:34

And as someone pointed out on Twitter, if sex is so nebulous and hard to define how does he know he "is biologically female"?

The sex is but the chromosomes' stamp,
A man's a woman for a' that!

borntobequiet · 10/02/2025 19:34

After today’s extraordinary revelations, I wonder how the BMA will spin any support they have given to Dr Upton.

HootyMcBoobs · 10/02/2025 19:35

If trans women are NOT males, then specifically what are they? What is is that makes them "trans"? If they were women, they would just be women surely?

I would like to hear this DOCTOR say that trans women are not biologically male. That is, after all , a biological descriptor for people with XY chromosomes. Is he saying that trans women do not have XY chromosomes?

In the report it also said that this "doctor" claims to be a biological female. What definition of "biological female" are we using now, that males can be included in that definition?

And finally, would anyone here feel safe and confident being treated by a doctor who is so mentally unwell that they believe this utter horseshit?

Priddy · 10/02/2025 19:36

I was watching today, for most of the day.

He's the kind of danger-to-women man who sets off every alarm bell for me. I could never have worked with him, I would've had to ask for a transfer or left for another job. It's that primal skin-crawling get me out of here effect.

They took a break late morning (shortly before midday, I think) and the microphones were turned off and I'm sure I saw Upton's wife, with her bottle of water, approach NC and say something. Couldn't hear what, but she seemed agitated. Did anyone else see it too? My partner thinks I'm imagining things.

Swashbuckled · 10/02/2025 19:36

I think the most interesting points were when NC was asking him to consider the perspectives of others, and his admissions that he had simply not done this prior to her asking him. Things like the menstruating woman, the woman who has experienced male abuse, being discussed by colleagues feeling unpleasant, being in a closed space with a 6ft male, the perspective of a female patient who consents only to being treated by a female clinician. (I’m sure there were others.)

I feel that, during these exchanges, his demeanour visibly altered. Sometimes he became angry, sometimes he tried to dominate, sometimes he struggled to conceal his panic at being exposed as having done something shameful (the non-lady breathiness).

He’s clearly narcissistic, and these questions exposed the narcissism in his thinking to the observer. But I think his narcissistic frailty means he is terrified of being seen as a narcissist (and his psychiatric training may give him enough knowledge of these traits at a cognitive level). And he cannot contain his emotion (shame) of being exposed and so loses self control as it creeps through him.

I thought these points were beautifully facilitated by NC.

Joolsin · 10/02/2025 19:37

Wow, have just finished reading 2500 posts between logging out last night and getting home this afternoon. I'm absolutely drained!! Thank you @nauticant and everyone else for your comprehensive documentation of the absolute rollercoaster of a day. I'm aghast at the revelation of DU's horrible character. Poor Sandie, having the misfortune to encounter such a creepy, entitled and scary bloke. She's even more of a heroine for having tried to stand up to him. Can't wait to see what happens tomorrow.

RethinkingLife · 10/02/2025 19:37

borntobequiet · 10/02/2025 19:34

After today’s extraordinary revelations, I wonder how the BMA will spin any support they have given to Dr Upton.

The current instantiation of the BMA will be desperate to crown Upton with a laurel wreath.

As per my previous comment, I'd anticipate that Upton will attract invitations to be an NHS NED and KOL.

yourhairiswinterfire · 10/02/2025 19:38

“Trans women are not males, so she would be asking specifically for trans women to be excluded from that space,” said Dr Upton. “It’s a very tricky situation

Why is it ''a very tricky situation'' if he's not male? This case wouldn't even be happening if he wasn't male.

But I don’t think you can use that to put restrictions on other people who have a right to access that space

Yes you can, it's lawful for males to be excluded from female-only spaces, he has no automatic right to use it, entitled idiot.

Also, if he's a ''biological woman'', why did he need to ask someone if he was allowed to use the women's changing room? No woman would have to ask.

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