Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #10

1000 replies

nauticant · 10/02/2025 15:51

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9

OP posts:
Thread gallery
27
RedToothBrush · 10/02/2025 17:28

As someone who has said this is all about power and control this is a marvel to see play out in court.

What I find unfathomable is that this is post Forstater and Fife NHS has been totally oblivious to Forstater.

Then there's the complete inconsistency of saying transwomen are women and that sex isn't definable and then insisting on the use of the word cis. Trans and cis can not exist without a recognition of sex. It's impossible.

As rightly said this is a power play and this person has become fixated on a particular woman because she refused to go along with the power play.

Then we have the logic that transwomen can not be outed as transwomen because that is harmful to their dignity and mental health but women, can not have single sex facilities unless they disclose they are victims of sexual abuse despite the rate of women being victims being something like 1 in 4.

This creating a hierarchy of system where male is the default, transwomen take priority which women must either tolerate or must go through a trial of disclosure of sexual abuse with potential to be suspended and lose their job in the process. How is this equality in the workplace in action? Keep in your heads this action and right to use the female facilities rests on the Equality Act...

Remind me why historically women's toilets were established in the first place? Was it because they were are risk of social pariahhood for using single sex facilities because it was unbecoming for a woman and she risked sexual abuse for using them, and because the very act of using them was a invitation for abuse because she was not a lady if she did and was a lower class unworthy of respect?

Hmmm.

It's fascinating to see.

This person is consistent and a true believer because they fundamentally truly and utterly believes they are entitled to use the women's and any woman who disagrees is a threat because she will not submit to this authority on the matter. The point has come out repeatedly in how they relate to others - they relate to transwomen NOT women - as their primary community. It's telling. When you watch behaviour not identity it plays out time and time again.

Again how is this consistent with equality and the Equality Act?

And the truly terrifying part of this, is that post Forstater, no one in authority at Fife NHS was willing to challenge or question this. Why? It's an important question to ask. Why has this got to this point where it's playing out in court? That's fundamentally concerning because it's totally against safeguarding protocols where NO ONE is above scrutiny or questions.

And thus this situation also demonstrates something very scary and why we should be concerned - it perfect recipe for all manner of issues - because it demonstrates abuse of power without accountability or checks and balances. That can manifest in all manner of ways - and abuses of power always harm those at the bottom of the pile and not those wielding this unquestioned power. This isn't about Fife NHS at that point. This is about how this can be about equality? How can it be about human rights, if the rights and dignity of women is so invisible to authority that they never stopped to question someone throwing their weight about so much?

Question: How does this doctor and Fife NHS win this case without over turning Forstater?

How can you state that women working for NHS Fife have dignity and equality in the workplace in this scenario?

I have to say, hats off to all concerned in bringing this to court regardless of the eventual judgement.

We are at a point, where Sandie doesn't lose the case, even if the ruling goes against her. It's impossible. Why? Because politically it's an untenable situation with this doctor making power plays like this - the law is a reflection of the public and is only enforceable if it has public consent.

Sunlight means even if the judge rules against Sandie, this isn't a position that's going to last long. Not with so many eyes watching this and how the subject has become a pivotal issue whilst so few people have been paying attention. (Some of us have seen that coming a mile off and warned it was coming).

I also find it utterly fascinating to see 1984 actually quoted as part of the case - it's another point, I've made over and over again on here.

I wonder if the doctor realised that the case is now Lose - Lose for NHS Fife?

Once again - it's about behaviour not identity.

Identity politics is a shield for behaviour which otherwise would be considered unacceptable. This comes in many forms. Unfortunately since abuses of power, do not have to be sexualised in nature, they allow ones which are sexually motivated to go ahead if it isn't challenged and that's why we should be wary. NC recognising and expressing that this problem of power and control and how this person was about trying to assert dominance really hits the nail on the head for that reason. And that's why it will be just so hated as an observation.

Bravo to all.

FarriersGirl · 10/02/2025 17:29

Well I definitely needed my support dog today [empathetic border collie] as some of this was starting to give me palpitations😦I am sure we have all noticed that DU seems to have spent the weekend in a beauty salon he looked quite different from last week I thought.

ClioMuse · 10/02/2025 17:30

NebulousDog · 10/02/2025 17:25

In my mind, Fife Hospital sounds as mad as the hospital in Green Wing (old Ch4 series).

I have visions of senior doctors and HR all hiding whenever the fragrant doctor is on the prowl.

Nobody has mentioned it recently, but let's remember that SP would only ever have encountered Dr U on weekend night shifts. Others can comment on how busy corridors and changing rooms would be away from A&E.

PS Gutted somebody has nabbed the fuller version of my name change (I will make a note of it on my phone in case it escalates).

You say Green Wing, I raise you 'Let the blood run free' - anarchic 1990s Australian medical spoof.

anyolddinosaur · 10/02/2025 17:30

For those commenting about Dr U's employment - he has moved on from a&e and not has a post in psychiatry! I know someone whose child had to see psychiatrists and she insisted they were all mad.........

Anyway the post he has is apparently not a permanent one and he doesnt have a training post. It seems unlikely he will get one as they are in short supply, although not quite as short in psychiatry as elsewhere.

Interesting that he knows of other trans people in a&e at the time but they havent mentioned it to him. If he doesnt recognise sex how would he know?

hollyblueivy · 10/02/2025 17:30

The question that was left hanging in the balance before the end of the hearing today, is this of benefit to the claimants case that the question was asked at that point and we do not yet know if DU will be required to answer. Although DU may stew all night on what his response may be and is that the possible tactic of asking that question at that time.

The question was to do with a woman wanting to be examined by a woman and whether DU would disclose that he was a man in his trans history or take a step back from the examination to respect the patient's wishes.

Im paraphrasing the question so sorry if slightly wrong.

popefully · 10/02/2025 17:31

Total tangent, but has anyone else had 'Uptown top ranking' in their head thanks to the Doc's surname?
Especially 'see me in my pants and ting'....

Datun · 10/02/2025 17:32

Also, poor Sandie and all the other women too scared for their jobs to do what she's done.

Christ, I'm not there, I'm not even looking at it through a screen. I'm reading it second hand, and I'm utterly creeped out, furious, and yes, really quite concerned that a man like this can have power over anyone.

there's not a woman on this thread who hasn't gone oh my fucking God that's dreadful/creepy/scary.

And I have to say, even if Sandie loses, (and I'll be fucking shocked if she does, but male judges, meh) this is absolutely, one hundred percent, the sort of sunlight that fucks trans ideology over big time.

I really want her to win, because I feel bloody sorry for the poor woman, but if she doesn't, she's done an amazing thing.

And yes, the appeal will nail it, I'm completely convinced - another day, another judge

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 10/02/2025 17:32

Is it just me or is it starting to look less like DrUs and NHS Fifes cases are starting to be less closely aligned?

oneshow · 10/02/2025 17:32

nauticant · 10/02/2025 15:51

Also, I'm bringing people's attention to a post by @FayeRC: "To those who don't know me, I have filed a similar employment tribunal complaint against a large public sector employer in England's side, also represented by Naomi Cunningham. Second preliminary hearing will be in February. More info available on CrowdJustice.com, pls search for Faye Russell-Caldicott."

@fayerc i can't find the case on crowdjustice.com

bunnypenny · 10/02/2025 17:33

Can anyone please let me know what NC said before JR said “oh!”? I had to dial off as had a call and missed it. Thanks!

MrsJamin · 10/02/2025 17:34

I'm trying to catch up with today but there's just so many posts. Where have they got to? Apologies if someone has already written one.

fanOfBen · 10/02/2025 17:35

hollyblueivy · 10/02/2025 17:30

The question that was left hanging in the balance before the end of the hearing today, is this of benefit to the claimants case that the question was asked at that point and we do not yet know if DU will be required to answer. Although DU may stew all night on what his response may be and is that the possible tactic of asking that question at that time.

The question was to do with a woman wanting to be examined by a woman and whether DU would disclose that he was a man in his trans history or take a step back from the examination to respect the patient's wishes.

Im paraphrasing the question so sorry if slightly wrong.

If I understand correctly, he did explain at the (in private) hearing earlier that he would not disclose "his trans history" to a woman who had asked for a female doctor, and would go ahead and examine her intimately, because he is a woman. No wonder JR interrupted so vehemently: she didn't want that repeated here.

Sothatsalrighthen · 10/02/2025 17:35

Loved Green Wing. Telegraph article comments about to crash.

KnottyAuty · 10/02/2025 17:35

DrU's training video:

<iframe width="1280" height="720" src="" title="Sterling Holloway - Trust In Me (The Python&#39;s Song) (From &quot;The Jungle Book&quot;/Sing-Along)" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" referrerpolicy="strict-origin-when-cross-origin" allowfullscreen></iframe>

WearyAuldWumman · 10/02/2025 17:36

NebulousDog · 10/02/2025 17:25

In my mind, Fife Hospital sounds as mad as the hospital in Green Wing (old Ch4 series).

I have visions of senior doctors and HR all hiding whenever the fragrant doctor is on the prowl.

Nobody has mentioned it recently, but let's remember that SP would only ever have encountered Dr U on weekend night shifts. Others can comment on how busy corridors and changing rooms would be away from A&E.

PS Gutted somebody has nabbed the fuller version of my name change (I will make a note of it on my phone in case it escalates).

I'm fairly certain that I saw him briefly, the night before the Christmas incident. I was in A&E and noticed a bloke with a ponytail and mascara. Fortunately, he left just after I got there.

I wasn't impressed by A&E that night. I heard the senior doctor telling a young junior female - the doc who dealt with me - that they wanted to get everyone out as soon as possible so that staff could get away early on Christmas Eve.

The young woman told the senior that an elderly lady from a care home needed a new hip. His reply: "What would be the point?"

The Minor Injuries doc had sent me there to get a slit lamp examination, in case I had a detached retina. They just kept me overnight in case I was having a stroke. I wasn't. I told them that. Only my vision was impaired - no droopy mouth etc. (Unfortunately, I've seen plenty of strokes in my time.)

Senior doc told junior doc to tell me to see my optometrist...(I'd already explained that I couldn't - they were closed until the 6th of Jan.)

Datun · 10/02/2025 17:36

RedToothBrush · 10/02/2025 17:28

As someone who has said this is all about power and control this is a marvel to see play out in court.

What I find unfathomable is that this is post Forstater and Fife NHS has been totally oblivious to Forstater.

Then there's the complete inconsistency of saying transwomen are women and that sex isn't definable and then insisting on the use of the word cis. Trans and cis can not exist without a recognition of sex. It's impossible.

As rightly said this is a power play and this person has become fixated on a particular woman because she refused to go along with the power play.

Then we have the logic that transwomen can not be outed as transwomen because that is harmful to their dignity and mental health but women, can not have single sex facilities unless they disclose they are victims of sexual abuse despite the rate of women being victims being something like 1 in 4.

This creating a hierarchy of system where male is the default, transwomen take priority which women must either tolerate or must go through a trial of disclosure of sexual abuse with potential to be suspended and lose their job in the process. How is this equality in the workplace in action? Keep in your heads this action and right to use the female facilities rests on the Equality Act...

Remind me why historically women's toilets were established in the first place? Was it because they were are risk of social pariahhood for using single sex facilities because it was unbecoming for a woman and she risked sexual abuse for using them, and because the very act of using them was a invitation for abuse because she was not a lady if she did and was a lower class unworthy of respect?

Hmmm.

It's fascinating to see.

This person is consistent and a true believer because they fundamentally truly and utterly believes they are entitled to use the women's and any woman who disagrees is a threat because she will not submit to this authority on the matter. The point has come out repeatedly in how they relate to others - they relate to transwomen NOT women - as their primary community. It's telling. When you watch behaviour not identity it plays out time and time again.

Again how is this consistent with equality and the Equality Act?

And the truly terrifying part of this, is that post Forstater, no one in authority at Fife NHS was willing to challenge or question this. Why? It's an important question to ask. Why has this got to this point where it's playing out in court? That's fundamentally concerning because it's totally against safeguarding protocols where NO ONE is above scrutiny or questions.

And thus this situation also demonstrates something very scary and why we should be concerned - it perfect recipe for all manner of issues - because it demonstrates abuse of power without accountability or checks and balances. That can manifest in all manner of ways - and abuses of power always harm those at the bottom of the pile and not those wielding this unquestioned power. This isn't about Fife NHS at that point. This is about how this can be about equality? How can it be about human rights, if the rights and dignity of women is so invisible to authority that they never stopped to question someone throwing their weight about so much?

Question: How does this doctor and Fife NHS win this case without over turning Forstater?

How can you state that women working for NHS Fife have dignity and equality in the workplace in this scenario?

I have to say, hats off to all concerned in bringing this to court regardless of the eventual judgement.

We are at a point, where Sandie doesn't lose the case, even if the ruling goes against her. It's impossible. Why? Because politically it's an untenable situation with this doctor making power plays like this - the law is a reflection of the public and is only enforceable if it has public consent.

Sunlight means even if the judge rules against Sandie, this isn't a position that's going to last long. Not with so many eyes watching this and how the subject has become a pivotal issue whilst so few people have been paying attention. (Some of us have seen that coming a mile off and warned it was coming).

I also find it utterly fascinating to see 1984 actually quoted as part of the case - it's another point, I've made over and over again on here.

I wonder if the doctor realised that the case is now Lose - Lose for NHS Fife?

Once again - it's about behaviour not identity.

Identity politics is a shield for behaviour which otherwise would be considered unacceptable. This comes in many forms. Unfortunately since abuses of power, do not have to be sexualised in nature, they allow ones which are sexually motivated to go ahead if it isn't challenged and that's why we should be wary. NC recognising and expressing that this problem of power and control and how this person was about trying to assert dominance really hits the nail on the head for that reason. And that's why it will be just so hated as an observation.

Bravo to all.

👏👏👏

This person is consistent and a true believer because they fundamentally truly and utterly believes they are entitled to use the women's and any woman who disagrees is a threat because she will not submit to this authority on the matter

when he said that Sandie should respect his position, I really wanted Naomi to say, you do understand that her position is protected by law and you should respect that also, don't you?

myplace · 10/02/2025 17:37

nauticant · 10/02/2025 16:33

Anyone wanting a mental palate cleanser: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001tbgh

I listened. Be more Athena.

fanOfBen · 10/02/2025 17:37

bunnypenny · 10/02/2025 17:33

Can anyone please let me know what NC said before JR said “oh!”? I had to dial off as had a call and missed it. Thanks!

Something like, NC pointed out that BU was attempting to dominate and intimidate her and force her to do what he wanted. JR wasn't following and asked "who?", so NC clarified "me". It was quite the moment. I really hope the panel clocked what was going on, and put it together to get that given he interacted like that with a KC in court, poor SP in a changing room had no chance.

Iamnotalemming · 10/02/2025 17:37

I think I hit peak peaked today.

In other news, on Woman's Hour this morning was a civil servant who had settled a constructive dismissal claim against her public sector employer and secured their undertaking to rewrite their gender reassignment policies. Basically the policies said that anyone not accepting the gender identity of an employee was transphobic. Civil servant argued coherently how this prevented civil servants from undertaking their work in an independent, non political manner. Worth a quick listen.

WearyAuldWumman · 10/02/2025 17:37

anyolddinosaur · 10/02/2025 17:30

For those commenting about Dr U's employment - he has moved on from a&e and not has a post in psychiatry! I know someone whose child had to see psychiatrists and she insisted they were all mad.........

Anyway the post he has is apparently not a permanent one and he doesnt have a training post. It seems unlikely he will get one as they are in short supply, although not quite as short in psychiatry as elsewhere.

Interesting that he knows of other trans people in a&e at the time but they havent mentioned it to him. If he doesnt recognise sex how would he know?

Ah. Maybe it was another bloke that I saw then. (I didn't think he was trans - just a bit 'metrosexual' and into make-up.

seXX · 10/02/2025 17:38

He's coming across so badly but let them speak! Clear narcissism when he was sure the only reason Sandie was in the CR was to wait for him:
"NC You assumed her presence there was about you.
DU Y. In same way today if photographers out front they are waiting to take pics of me."

Me..me..me..

NotAGentleReminder · 10/02/2025 17:38

WhatterySquash · 10/02/2025 17:18

ran around A&E to find the consultant on duty - crying and shaking - to complain that this incident was a "hate crime" and needed to be escorted to their car because they were "afraid".

And yet this wouldn't be the reaction of a biological female, would it? If SP said to me she wasn't comfortable changing in front of me because I'm male, I'd just try to chat to her and reassure her that I am female. I wouldn't be offended, I'd just wonder why she thought that and try to help. The idea that it was a "hate crime" wouldn't even occur to me.

Edited

Having been a junior doctor doing hospital night shifts many years ago, I dread to think how it would have gone down with the consultant on call if I'd spent time searching the department for him/her then disturbing his/her rest in the middle of the night to cry and shake and ask for help filling out a critical incident form because a colleague had told me I'd done something he or she didn't like.

Datun · 10/02/2025 17:39

WearyAuldWumman · 10/02/2025 17:36

I'm fairly certain that I saw him briefly, the night before the Christmas incident. I was in A&E and noticed a bloke with a ponytail and mascara. Fortunately, he left just after I got there.

I wasn't impressed by A&E that night. I heard the senior doctor telling a young junior female - the doc who dealt with me - that they wanted to get everyone out as soon as possible so that staff could get away early on Christmas Eve.

The young woman told the senior that an elderly lady from a care home needed a new hip. His reply: "What would be the point?"

The Minor Injuries doc had sent me there to get a slit lamp examination, in case I had a detached retina. They just kept me overnight in case I was having a stroke. I wasn't. I told them that. Only my vision was impaired - no droopy mouth etc. (Unfortunately, I've seen plenty of strokes in my time.)

Senior doc told junior doc to tell me to see my optometrist...(I'd already explained that I couldn't - they were closed until the 6th of Jan.)

😮

Ffs.

TethersMiddle · 10/02/2025 17:39

I may have missed this (can’t keep up), but I’ve seen mention of watching this - how do you do that (apologies again for not having rtft- I’m trying to catch up)

Sothatsalrighthen · 10/02/2025 17:39

WearyAuldWumman · 10/02/2025 17:36

I'm fairly certain that I saw him briefly, the night before the Christmas incident. I was in A&E and noticed a bloke with a ponytail and mascara. Fortunately, he left just after I got there.

I wasn't impressed by A&E that night. I heard the senior doctor telling a young junior female - the doc who dealt with me - that they wanted to get everyone out as soon as possible so that staff could get away early on Christmas Eve.

The young woman told the senior that an elderly lady from a care home needed a new hip. His reply: "What would be the point?"

The Minor Injuries doc had sent me there to get a slit lamp examination, in case I had a detached retina. They just kept me overnight in case I was having a stroke. I wasn't. I told them that. Only my vision was impaired - no droopy mouth etc. (Unfortunately, I've seen plenty of strokes in my time.)

Senior doc told junior doc to tell me to see my optometrist...(I'd already explained that I couldn't - they were closed until the 6th of Jan.)

Please what happened? That’s awful! (‘Have PRD)

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.
Swipe left for the next trending thread