NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #10

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9

Search for:

CrowdJustice Faye Russell-Caldicott

Here’s the relevant thread on Mumsnet. Might help you locate the crowdfund.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5159395-employment-tribunal-case-to-protect-single-sex-facilities-at-work

There was a lot of ‘I just want to peel’! Which I thought very trans of him.

sorry I’m 8 pages behind so may be repetitive but just needed to get that out!

Email for a link and pin, email address in the post at the top of each thread. Don't ask anyone to share theirs, we aren't allowed to!

"Absolutely. Today he's demonstrated himself willing and able to argue his beliefs, very pushy and domineering towards women. The ET will be sceptical that SP politely saying "you really shouldn't be in here" caused him such deep, existential distress."

I'd like to think so. We'll see.

I think, given that this judge is the same one who didn't believe Gillian Philip's mental health reports/assessment following the death of her husband/sacking from her job in her case (see posts below with her comments),

https://x.com/gillian_philip/status/1885448778297020869?s=46

"I wish the best of luck to Ms Peggie, in the court of a man who does not believe women have genuine feelings."

https://x.com/gillian_philip/status/1885454043297755204?s=46

"This also applies to David Hay, barrister, and my former employers. Working Partners/Coolabi and HarperCollins were eager to say my husband’s death meant nothing. Not just to them — to me. They convinced EJ Kemp (all too easily) that I was playacting my grief and rage."

It will be interesting to see where he lands in terms of whose distress/reaction/responses he accepts as genuine, from the evidence given.

NC put it to DU that he was seeking to assert power through forcing use of his preferred language. JR asked who NC thought he was trying to control. NC said, 'me', JR said 'oh!'

Just wanted to say, like many of us here, I've followed a lot of these tribunals but I've never seen so much interest in one as this. There's literally thousands of posts on Twitter about it. All utterly incredulous. Didn't we always say, all this needed was sunlight?

Also, when I studied Shakespeare at school, I NEVER thought the phrase ' hoisted by their own petard ' would come in so useful. I've used it a lot these last few years!😂

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

@WearyAuldWumman shocking advice, to wait a week to go to the optician to have a possible detached retina assessed! Sorry you had that in A&E

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”

“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”

“The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that's all.”

Lewis Carroll: Through the Looking-Glass

edited to add underlining for my emphasis

And the truly terrifying part of this, is that post Forstater, no one in authority at Fife NHS was willing to challenge or question this.

From what I know of how most people feel about genderism in their workplaces, I can't believe there was no one involved in dealing with BU who has no time for this bullshit. And it should have been dealt with much better from the start. But I do think what PPs on earlier threads have said is strong possibility - people thought "if I don't tread carefully here I'll end up being accused and witch-hunted too - just let it go to tribunal/court to be sunlighted all over and for the woman to win like so many others have". Longer-term, that at least is one way to make progress and get change.

So DrU is a woman, no sorry a biological woman, definitely not male but female but menstruation has never crossed DrU minds when in a toilet environment?
DrU should probably see a Dr, ideally one with some sort of vague grasp of human biology, which I foolishly thought was all of them until today. I was aware of TW are W medics but I didn't for a moment think they actually believe that, that they would say try and give DrU a cervical smear or or spend time looking for his womb.

Is it too much to ask that people at least read the OP about how to view the hearing? I'd estimate about 20% of posts are about accessing the hearing (some of them totally understandable because it's not always clear what you're meant to click on once you have the link etc).

I think the fifth is actually a penis.

Some of the TRA language is quite Americanised. See also 'use the bathroom'. When I hear people talk like this I suspect much time spent online (not on MN, obvs! 😂)

I am very behind so forgive me if it’s been said. The judge’s job is to ensure that proceedings are fair, expeditious, and that conditions are created for the best evidence to be given. Where there is a communication gap between counsel and witness it’s right to stop and unpick that as it may compromise the evidence. That’s true even where the reason for the gap is the deliberate awkwardness of the witness. Plus that awkwardness is itself evidence…

For the avoidance of doubt I emailed the Edinburgh ET for access on Sunday afternoon and discovered the link and pin had been sent to me at 1106 on Monday morning. Simplicity itself to log on, don't make the same mistake that I did and share the link, you cannot circumvent this process. Fantastic opportunity to see the live proceedings.

While I was still in A&E had friend had texted me. (I'd asked A&E did they know whether any optometrist in Fife was open on Christmas Eve. They couldn't say.)

God bless her, my pal phoned her optometrist - Superdrug. She texted me to say that the branch in my town was open and she'd made an appointment for me.

The Superdrug optometrist gave me a very thorough check. It turned out that the problem was a rather spectacular but pain-free ocular migraine. The more stressed I got, the more zig-zag lines and black bands appeared across my left eye. It had gone on for hours. The ocular migraine had triggered a very large floater which also impaired my vision. I had no idea that this could happen. (I'm not usually a wimp, but I was terrified that I was going blind - I'm in my 60s, so the right age for a detached retina.)

After I knew what was wrong and calmed down, the zigzags stopped. (The floater stayed with me for a few months but gradually broke up/floated to the bottom.)

When I asked the Superdrug optometrist how much I owed, her answer was "Nothing. We're charging the NHS, since we're doing their job for them.)

I don't have a lot of faith in the Vic A&E. In 2013, they misdiagnosed my late husband's full blown stroke as a TIA, simply because they didn't scan him straight away. (When I asked about the scan: "Oh, they''ll fit him in when they have the time.) By the time another doctor came on, the 4 hr window for the clotbuster drug was gone, and DH was left with life-changing disabilities.

The express is amazing 🤩

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/dr-beth-upton-man-who-34652147?utm_source=linkCopy&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

Playing Devil's Advocate, I'm not so sure - I know people who aren't zealot lunatics who will think he has made a reasonable and logical argument.

In any case this isn't about his beliefs or how well or badly he can express them - it's about whether his actions constituted bullying and harassment of SP. Why he did it is irrelevant.

I'm not sure I share the apparent consensus on here that he has performed badly today. He's certainly done better than many posters on here were speculating last week - ie that he wouldn't turn up at all or would burst into tears when challenged. Quite the opposite in fact...

I am less certain than some posters the DU will be viewed by the panel in the same way as most on FWR do.

I find his presentation and the substance of what he is saying abhorrent. He is the personification of why I don't want TW in single sex spaces.

I think some will think him to be reasoned and considered. Even though his arguments are bat shit crazy to those who acknowledge the material reality of sex, unless that is the agreed starting point, he can defend his position. This is what is infuriating me.

Maybe we were always going to end up this way.

There have been separate changing rooms for so long and it has been "common sense" that we've forgotten exactly why we have them - DU mentioned today about "purity" which links to religious fervour of the 18th and 19th century - maybe he's right that it is less relevant today. Or not too long ago society thought it acceptable to make someone their slave because of their ethnicity - given the brutality that took waay too long to scotch.

There are lots of things to come in the near future with AI and robots - someone joked upthread about robots but we will need protected definitions.

The general public aren't allowed to just go around calling themselves doctors - we need to make sure that our gender definitions get properly thrashed out so the same applies for women, men, and any other categories of human gender yet to be agreed on.

But hearing him speak any sympathy I had for DU is gone. All I could think about was coercive control - is there a workplace equivalent?

@WearyAuldWumman I'm so sorry to hear about your DH's medical mismanagement. That's awful.

Isn't a lot of law down to what can be considered reasonable?

No wonder they wanted to keep proceedings private. Upton's testimony is absolutely jaw dropping batshit.