NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #10

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9

Based on his performance today, he'd probably stand there wearing that hideous smirk of his pretending he doesn't understand what they mean and won't do unless they use the language of his daft ideology.

There have been a couple of posters who talked about difficult things going on in their lives, like caring for a mother with dementia. In a less frenetic thread, you'd have received expressions of support, but it all moved on so fasts!
so sending retrospective s to anybody going through hard times x

@NotAGentleReminder
I'm in the same situ. I've had all these conversations in the kitchen with my TI DC, and am still stunned at the rapid personality change, as well as the nonsensical insistence on so many things. So today's evidence has been a bit upsetting, but at least DU has to answer the questions. My DC would just escalate the conversation into an argument and then run away.

There is @Taytoface I agree, because to him "female" means mystical ladyfeelz which are unknowable by anyone else. He doesn't accept that sex exists.

Surely he's only going to seem reasonable to fellow zealot lunatics?

Bluebootsgreenboots hug for you, too.

I think that the queer theorists are using the TWAW crowd to push us to a position where we give up our separate- and single-sex spaces for the very reason you outline. The Malaga crowd won't be happy, but the queer theorists want to remove all boundaries

Exactly this. There is a fundamental conflict there.

I don't understand why UK court times seem to be 10am to 4pm with an hour for lunch and a couple of 10 minute breaks.

I watch quite a lot of US trials livestreamed on You Tube and they mostly seem to run from 9am to 5pm, but some go from 8am to 5pm

Also Youtube much better audio and visual cover in general, but audio sometimes a problem. Judges constantly telling witnesses and counsel to speak into the microphone.

It really is a glimpse into an awful scenario where women lose language and the ability to talk about basic sex clearly

I think having him on the stand has shown his need to dominate

His male behaviour writ large

However he also says sex is complicated/nebulous/there's no agreed definition. In that case why does he think there is a women's CR, surely that makes no sense according to his beliefs? if it's all so nebulous, a spectrum, undefined etc how can he define himself as female if females can't? And if sex is so unimportant and nebulous, why does it matter to him that he's in one CR and not another?

The consistent approach whould be that everyone belongs in one big CR, or in a private room on their own.

You'd hope so, but we got to this place because some people swallow this tripe, and men like Dr U do a good show of being reasonable and just wanting to pee in peace.

Whether we like it or not, there are many people who either agree with him, or just think women should shut up and budge up.

Seeing him in action has helped me understand how we have gotten to this batshit mental place.

No. Will was clinging to a doctrine that had become part of him, he had doubts deep down, and was at heart a good person.

Upton has no doubts and no redeeming features.

Let's see if this ends up being relevant:

https://www.dacbeachcroft.com/en/What-we-think/Tribunal-practice-Employment-tribunal-hearings-will-be-recorded-and-transcribed-from-20-November

A transcript, if available, will cost a great deal but would be worth it.

I'm glad the biological female line is leading the headline

Although BBC won't I'm guessing

Unfortunately the GMC would allow him to be on their register as female.

Yes, the cognitive dissonance is going to be pretty spectacular.

This guy? This is the same guy??

Oh that must be so hard. This ideology poisons everything it touches. Thoughts with you.

Listening to him made me wonder if the TRA viewpoint can possibly be WORIADS. It feels Alice in wonderland - words mean exactly what I want them to, and there's not a word for what used to be known as women because it's undefinable.

But, although it seems crazy to me, perhaps it is consistent?

Only though if there are no exceptions ever to self ID. Any exceptions, and there is no consistency and it falls apart. Hence big hairy Pete being she, if he just says he's a she. But was there a hint of Isla Bryson being rapist gender? In which case, BU's beliefs can't be WORIADS?

Thank you Nauticant who started this thread - I had to check, I thought it was Hellebore this time, maybe that was the last one, thank you both anyway!- and to all you nimble-fingered reporters.
Did your parents say to you, as mine did to me 'Learn how to type - it will stand you in good stead later'? I bet they didn't have this in mind😄

I've always been one for "Live and Let Live", but I have to draw the line at the denial of reality exhibited today. I'm astounded this person got through medical school while clearly being a delusional fantasist. There's so much I want to say but I'm simultaneously lost for words.

Obviously the logical and fair solution is three spaces - two single sex (not gender) one mixed sex and gender neutral / fluid / whatever.

Edited to add: though I'd still draw the line at any HCP who doesn't recognise that the reality of biological sex matters and will not respect patients requests for same sex HCPs, which given DU is claiming he's female, he clearly wouldn't do.

DU's evidence to the ET today about the conflict in the changing room came across as robust, argumentative, intransigent and refused to back down - quite the contract to the "poor vulnerable TW" who minutes later ran around A&E to find the consultant on duty - crying and shaking - to complain that this incident was a "hate crime" and needed to be escorted to their car because they were "afraid".

What struck me the most was when NC said he was trying to dominate her (over the language issue). I am sure all women could immediately imagine Sandie standing in that changing room asking him to try and understand. She must have been terrified.

Obviously the logical and fair solution is three spaces - two single sex (not gender) one mixed sex and gender neutral / fluid / whatever.

It is, but many of these people consider it traumatic to be reminded that sex exists at all.

I sympathise too. My DD although young is very GC, though tolerant of her friends' pronouns. My older DS is on the GI side and it really shocks me because he has a very incisive mind and a good nose for logical fallacy in most situations. Talking to him about it is beyond frustrating because he will not listen, or accept that any evidence-based view could just be about reality and fairness rather than being "anti-trans", or that I have no issue with trans people per se, it's only because I'm being expected to lose my rights and change definitions that I'm not happy. He's swallowed all kinds of pseudoscience and it's so unlike him. I just hope he'll grow out of it but it's so disconcerting to see.