NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #10

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9

I hadn't realised that her email to all the A&E consultants was alleged to be part of the harassment against SP.

The way he went up to his wife (the Wall of Sad person on the far right) to get a bottle of water and then hand her the empty bottle was very male. Anyone else notice that at the end of the last 5 minute break?

I'd say that, though only in an informal context. I wouldn't say 'bathroom' in this context because I'm not in America. If I was being formal I'd say 'toilet', but having a pee sounds OK to me.
God knows there are so many other things that DrU said that were mindboggling outrageous!

I've been playing catch-up on the threads this afternoon and just got to the end... Thanks as always to those commenting in real time.

I've just read some of the last TT thread reader. Did JR actually object to questions on DUs appearance / "passing" on the basis that a previous judge had already said he was obviously a man? I'm sure I've got the wrong end of the stick and have missed a lot of context!

Well if Naomi wanted to demonstrate that this man is controlling, dominating, brooks no argument, doesn't give a shit about consent, doesn't understand sex discrimination, has absolutely no affinity with or for women, and believes that the feelings in his head trump reality, then I'd say she's done a bloody bang up job.

She might be 100% on board with it all and a true believer alongside him.

This is what drives me mad @Boutonniere - I do hope all goes well for you tomorrow.

All the ruddy things I've gone through as a woman from very painful periods, regular breast checks and smears, transvaginal scans, hormonal contraception, post menopausal bleeding, pregnancy and c sections, autoimmune diseases more prevalent in women - on and on and then we have men mansplaining to us what it is to be female and that they consider themselves in this category

Haha

🎯

My feeling about all this is that Dr U gave his answers very fluently and confidently. The actual answers were, nonetheless, complete nonsense. So written down and reported in a newspaper (or in a tribunal judgement) they are likely to appear less impressive than they may have done while being spouted by Dr U.

I loved it when the judge said “it’s a bit like asking a question in French and getting the answer in German”.

I may be confused, but I think it was late, just not "after the hearing has already started" late - not known at the time when they put the list of claims together. So I think, but am not sure, that it isn't specifically mentioned, although it might have been if it had been known earlier. Seems there may be a fair bit of that.

Reading these threads, it sounds like DU is coming across as a tub-thumping activist and not a poor sweet little TW just trying to live a quiet life. Stubborn, entitled, openly denying biological reality, and trying to assert his “dominance” over NC. It sounds like he’s not afraid of anyone or anything. Will he lose sympathy as a result I wonder, or will he become a folk hero for the pronoun posse?

Feck I meant to include recurrent thrush and pelvic floor difficulties in below list - just remembered due to Elaine from gussy grips being featured below

I agree.

It's sinister listening to that level of delusion. It's genuinely utterly chilling.

When given the chance to dial back on his leap to 'transphobic bully' accusations when he suggested SP went to the CR to hang around til he was on his own to 'aggressively' have a go at him, he just threw that in the bin he didn't think there could be a genuine reason for her being there that had nothing to do with him & instead doubled down on 'even her trauma isn't enough to justify what she said or did'.

He's a cold manipulative narcissist with a heavy victim mentality & he's clearly used to tying people in knots while exerting dominance over others whenever his favourite subject comes up (mostly from his notes kept on colleagues).

He's revealing a helluva lot about himself, and none of it is endearing to those who have to work with him.

I think everyone was internally screaming JUST MAKE HIM STOP by the end.

I keep seeing posters saying this, so I'll say that in my experience the word pee is used universally by Scottish men and women. Wee is never used. Wee means little.
Not arguing he doesn't speak a load of rubbish, but on this point he is correct to say pee.
(Unless there are variations within Scotland which I'd of course possible).

That's for sure, though it was extremely difficult to listen to. So much so that I had stop listening now and then.

I cannot in recent memory recall anyone I've loathed as much as DU, for all the reasons others have stated.

I am just thinking, how exactly would a patient avoid having him physically examine them if they want a female physician.

I want a woman doctor , he is a woman, so he's in

I want a literal woman, yep, he is that too

I want a biological female, he can tick that box

I don't want a man. Nope, he ain't no man.

It would have to be something along the lines of I want a female doctor but not one who was assigned male at birth. Then, maybe then, he would concede.

Can anyone, give an unbiased estimate of who is likely to come out on top with this? Finger in the air?

👏👏👏

As I said upthread, I can't wait for NC to find out how this man was reduced to being a weeping wilting flower by SP walking out. Or was it staying in? And not saying anything to him. Or was it saying something to him?....

As far as I'm aware, we're the only place where a group of people are discussing what's happening together and following in detail and in real time. No equivalent where people on the other side are doing the same, I mean. There's nothing similar in the obvious place on reddit, anyway. Interesting to speculate about why that is.

Well, The Telegraph aren't pulling any punches today!

https://x.com/JournalismSEEN/status/1888990638802096150?t=AQbM6X_-cGT7ZIt4XXzYrg&s=19

Thanks everyone for keeping us all going. Quite a day.

I think it went well and we continue to see four fingers and not five.

Looking forward to Searle and the justification of that email.